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Does age matter?


joerobson

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FWIW, we have been making a couple of models of student violins for a number of years now. As a rule, instruments that come back to us as trade-ins generally sound a bit better and sell more quickly than new instruments, at close to new prices. Whether this is due to playing, a few years of settling-in, or age alone I couldn't say. No idea what a couple of centuries of aging might do. I'm pretty sure it won't transform a bad instrument into a good one, since there are plenty of not very good old instruments about, but it's certainly plausible that it could make a good one better.

At any rate, it's not very relevant to me, since we can't make old instruments. Just have to do the best we can on new ones.

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Sorry Joe... I resisted for a while, but couldn't help myself! I think Chet's 10 foot pole is out there somewhere, but the way the question was presented kept making me giggle.

Could somebody be so kind and explain what a "10 foot pole" is and/or what metaphorical significance one would have. I have already worked out that you aren't all talking about a very, very tall person from Poland

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Could somebody be so kind and explain what a "10 foot pole" is and/or what metaphorical significance one would have. I have already worked out that you aren't all talking about a very, very tall person from Poland

Jacob,

When we do not want to suffer the consequences of dealing with something that could turn nasty we say " I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole."

Joe

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If just old wood is good enough, then making a new fiddle from old wood would do the job. There are some top makers working that way.

And so, an instrument is not inferior [to itself or to other instruments] just because it is young. Correct? Incorrect?

Joe

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And so, an instrument is not inferior [to itself or to other instruments] just because it is young. Correct? Incorrect?

Joe

++++++++++++++

Often, Some conditions are necessary but not sufficient. A violin being old age is not necessarily to make it good. It is also true that a good newly

made violin will improve with age. Age is matter too. There is no contradiction.

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IMO, an instrument should sound good from the start. You shouldn't need to wait months or years for it to "cure".

++++++++++

There are a million of adjustments to be made on a new violin. A player would feel walking

into an unfamiliar territory when he tries a new violin. It may take days or weeks to feel

comfortable to play a new violin.

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solid iron particles in cellulose? and fine violins exposed to lot's of UV for 300 years turning to dry rot.. hmmm... Barking up the wrong tree I think

Are there any chemists on this board who could tell us what actually happens to wood as it ages? Not just exposed to the elements but just the age component? Well of course time itself is just a temporal dimension so it won't do anything so there has to be some chemical reaction that occurs and oxidation is one although I wouldn't equate it with metal rust.

And on that note from a chemical perspective what exactly does UV exposure do to cause white wood to turn tan? Sorry that question is off topic but it just came to mind from all this.

Mike, I may not have Phd. behind my title, however I have been hired by many Multi-billion dollar corporations to troubleshoot, work with, correct assumptions, misunderstandings and other technical errors that their "teams" of Phd's could not figure out. For example Germany's #1 selling finish for certain applications had me evaluate their new product that they were having trouble with, their lead chemist's{all with 400k salary's} could not understand why it would not work. It took me all of 5 min. to figure out why, and that their 5mil dollar investment was garbage and it would never work. It has nothing to do with going to school to "learn", it has everything to do with understanding the way things work naturally by observation, intuition and imagination.

At any rate, related to photo-oxidation of polymers.Wood is a natural polymer. the rna/dna chain in cellulose is primarily sugar. In this natural crystalline polymer there are many other trace components, iron and many other minerals are present. All components are subject to degradation by radiation when exposed to ozone and oxygen. On a molecular level the chains of bonds have individual components, they are subject to different rates of decay depending on what the element is along with other chemical reactions.

If you observe common grade maple you will see black streaks in the wood, these are referred to as "mineral streaks", these are literally "minerals" that have for various reasons pooled, concentrated or have been subject to uneven distribution in the polymer chain. When you see these black streaks what you are seeing is iron rich deposits embedded in a quantum fashion in the wood structure. These areas are black because the "iron gall ink" effect has naturally happened within the wood itself. Meaning the iron rich deposits have mixed with the present free and bound water naturally contained in the wood along with the natural present tannins. When we mix iron,tannin and water together we get the black ink reaction. This reaction is actually a form of burning, as is Photo oxidization and radiation exposure. The rate of decay and or the life span of this ink when used on paper is about 600 years until photo oxidization "rusts" or oxidized it away.

If you observe these cuts of wood that are many hundred years old you will see that maple common grade with black streaks, these black areas are subject to 'rust" and or degradation with exposure. The more time, the more exposure. You can observe in Maple flooring,for example that is over 200 years old that these dark areas are prone to dish out and or depressions. This is because these areas while extremely dense in their natural state compared to some blond wood right next to it, within the same board,they are much more prone to decay because of the iron deposits, the iron is effected more than the "normal" wood that has the minerals more evenly distributed in the polymer chain. These "pools" of iron rich wood fiber are subject to "rusting". However individual components are still subject to decy within the chain itself, thus causing perferation on a microscopic level.

When we cut wood to very thin dimensions its ability to be "cooked" thru and thru by radiation is a reality. Think of it like the crust on bread.The crust is different than the interior of the bread. As seen when cutting old wood, you can see where the radiation has cooked the "crust" or outer surface of the material, even though this material is the same as that on the interior of the "bread/wood" it has different properties than the "interior bread/wood" because of it being "closer" to the heat source. The thinner the material, the more subject to becoming "crust" it becomes.

This effects woods "normal" state of bound and free water wicking and absorption.

A very old violin is like one that has been made from the crust of the bread, and newer one is one made from the interior of the bread.

Regardless of how old the violin is, if it is not well made, it still won't sound good. However older violins made well by people with natural talent that are played often, will sound better or different than newer ones, see Stradavarius/Del Gesu ;)

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And so, an instrument is not inferior [to itself or to other instruments] just because it is young. Correct? Incorrect?

Joe

I do not think so. I have heard great young instruments. The trade I am working in might be different from the violin trade in that respect, I do not know.

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Mike, I may not have Phd. behind my title, however I have been hired by many Multi-billion dollar corporations to troubleshoot, work with, correct assumptions, misunderstandings and other technical errors that their "teams" of Phd's could not figure out. For example Germany's #1 selling finish for certain applications had me evaluate their new product that they were having trouble with, their lead chemist's{all with 400k salary's} could not understand why it would not work. It took me all of 5 min. to figure out why, and that their 5mil dollar investment was garbage and it would never work. It has nothing to do with going to school to "learn", it has everything to do with understanding the way things work naturally by observation, intuition and imagination.

......

A very old violin is like one that has been made from the crust of the bread, and newer one is one made from the interior of the bread.

Regardless of how old the violin is, if it is not well made, it still won't sound good. However older violins made well by people with natural talent that are played often, will sound better or different than newer ones, see Stradavarius/Del Gesu ;)

Very interesting. Definitive proof that you are not a chemist and therefore should not be trying to teach us chemistry.

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Very interesting. Definitive proof that you are not a chemist and therefore should not be trying to teach us chemistry.

Very interesting quip, what points have I made that you disagree with? The quotes you captioned don't seem to have much to do with the "chemistry" points I have made, therefore it really doesn't make that much sense. It just sounds like negative banter intended to belittle me.

If you have some scientific journals, writings, heck, wikpedia articles, countering anything I've said please post them. I am quite sure I can find several that back up my statements about what cellulose/wood is made of and how oxidization based on exposure to radiation effects all things. Also how the dimension effects penetration.

And I'm not trying to teach anyone chemistry. The point may be based in chemistry, but its not chemistry. its much more like how to think :lol: well I thought it was funny

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about oxizaidation on celulose

http://related.springerprotocols.com/lp/de-gruyter/photo-oxidation-of-paper-documents-a-literature-review-QxUSVKa0ln

about high iron content in wood,explaining to some extent how quantum absorption rate can vary depending on conditions

http://www.springerlink.com/content/7llw57c8mqa5lgqg/

what cellulose is, a natural long chain polysaccharide of gluclose...with a bunch of other stuff when its in a tree

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulose

the effects of chemical photo-aging at the molecular level

http://www.pcimag.com/Articles/Feature_Article/8820e996f5deb010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

about autooxidization

"Wood contains cellulose, a high molecular weight polysaccharides. Cellulose undergoes auto-oxidation in the presence of UV radiation (1) leading to bleaching of the surface Cellulose itself does not absorb UV, however, lignin, hemi-celluloses and some dyes and pigments act as photo-sensitisers. (Photo-sensitisers absorb UV radiation and transfer the energy to the cellulose, initiating a reaction.) As a result some of the long molecular chains break up, lowering the degree of polymerisation, and weakening the material. Nevertheless, deterioration is unlikely to have a significant effect on the structural integrity of joinery because joinery is usually solid and auto-oxidation only occurs at the surface"

Bout trace metals in wood

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FyGEcKFXziUJ:homer.ornl.gov/baes/documents/treerings/+trace+metal+in+wood+rusting&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com

atmospheric corrosion of wood

http://books.google.com/books?id=y05CbgYc4O8C&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=atmospheric+corrosion+in+wood&source=bl&ots=K9mZkAvVNz&sig=QIoaRr17cKgkW_FJvzZL5JZmxjQ&hl=en&ei=V1wvTtXwF4LjiALWtdUr&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=atmospheric%20corrosion%20in%20wood&f=false

Really I could go on and on. There is much information in unrelated subjects that give one a body of evidence that could be used to determine its effects on wood quality and "just what happens' to it when it is carved thin and the allowed to age. But I do not see any "studies" just lots of speculation related to what it may or may not do to tone.

I do feel that there is quite a bit of science backing up my statements, just because no one has put all these pieces of evidence together related to how these effects and others influence violin tone, does not mean that they do not.

Nor does one have to have formal training or a diploma in order to study and learn about chemistry, wood or anything.

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Very interesting quip, what points have I made that you disagree with? The quotes you captioned don't seem to have much to do with the "chemistry" points I have made, therefore it really doesn't make that much sense. It just sounds like negative banter intended to belittle me.

If you have some scientific journals, writings, heck, wikpedia articles, countering anything I've said please post them. I am quite sure I can find several that back up my statements about what cellulose/wood is made of and how oxidization based on exposure to radiation effects all things. Also how the dimension effects penetration.

And I'm not trying to teach anyone chemistry. The point may be based in chemistry, but its not chemistry. its much more like how to think :lol: well I thought it was funny

I have to admit I laughed a lot, too. Some of the most ridiculous stuff I've ever read. I shortened the quote to save space, but here's one:

"the rna/dna chain in cellulose is primarily sugar."

That's a real laugher. I'm not going to try to explain this stuff to somebody who obviously doesn't have a clue. Comic books aren't what you should be studying. I'll just go back to ignoring your posts.

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I have to admit I laughed a lot, too. Some of the most ridiculous stuff I've ever read. I shortened the quote to save space, but here's one:

"the rna/dna chain in cellulose is primarily sugar."

That's a real laugher. I'm not going to try to explain this stuff to somebody who obviously doesn't have a clue. Comic books aren't what you should be studying. I'll just go back to ignoring your posts.

Sorry that should read that the rna and dna that make up all living things{trees} in this case are made from long chain polysaccharides of gluclose {celluose} a natural polymer.

So I mis type one thing and this is the response I get? we may never know the facts as to what old wood does or does not do, the properties of old wood have been studied quite extensively, but one fact for sure is that you are rude and have no idea how to counter a point in an intelligent cordial manner. You have basically come accross as an "expert" who knows "things above my and others heads" yet fail to explain any of it, why, because you are above me and others with your intellect? why don't you share what you know, or think you know so it can be discussed and we all{including myself} can learn something. Really quite rude and immature. Remember your not just explaining it to me, you are explaining it to everyone, please enlighten us. Because if all you have is "you wrote that cellulose's dna/rna" is a long chain polymer" when I will admit it should have been rna/dna is comprised of long chain polymers{in a tree} is that all you have in order to make such judgments? about what "clues" I have or do not have.

Its rude crap like this that makes me want to stop being involved with violins, it is the love of the instrument that seems to keep me involved with it, in general, empahsis on "in general" I find many people involved with violins to be rude and suffering from social defcts as in the ability to engage someone in a converstaion without coming accross like an a hole.

But please by all means just ignore me, it simpler that way for both of us.

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Sorry that should read that the rna and dna that make up all living things{trees} in this case are made from long chain polysaccharides of gluclose {celluose} a natural polymer.

So I mis type one thing and this is the response I get? we may never know the facts as to what old wood does or does not do, the properties of old wood have been studied quite extensively, but one fact for sure is that you are rude and have no idea how to counter a point in an intelligent cordial manner. You have basically come accross as an "expert" who knows "things above my and others heads" yet fail to explain any of it, why, because you are above me and others with your intellect? why don't you share what you know, or think you know so it can be discussed and we all{including myself} can learn something. Really quite rude and immature. Remember your not just explaining it to me, you are explaining it to everyone, please enlighten us. Because if all you have is "you wrote that cellulose's dna/rna" is a long chain polymer" when I will admit it should have been rna/dna is comprised of long chain polymers{in a tree} is that all you have in order to make such judgments? about what "clues" I have or do not have.

Its rude crap like this that makes me want to stop being involved with violins, it is the love of the instrument that seems to keep me involved with it, in general, empahsis on "in general" I find many people involved with violins to be rude and suffering from social defcts as in the ability to engage someone in a converstaion without coming accross like an a hole.

But please by all means just ignore me, it simpler that way for both of us.

Give the guy a break Peter... After all, he had a run in with a Crock - O - Sh%& and lost...

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Please. Let's quit before I need to edit, OK?

The good news is that both parties are correct:

- pentose sugars (5 carbon rings such as a ribose) are the structural backbone of DNA and RNA, but can also be used in energy pathways (pentose phosphate shunt)

- hexose sugars (6 carbon rings such as glucose) are used in energy pathways, but can also form structural backbones of polysaccharides - some with easily broken down links if they are energy storage sinks, eg glycogen, and other with more resistant links if they are meant to form mechanical fibres, eg cellulose.

All's well that ends well.

And now back to Age (a good lawyer would say: not if you don't want a fat lawsuit claiming age discrimination).

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well i think the evidence is that old wood is different from new wood which would make it easy to imply old violins have a different sound quality than new violins, now since almost all the people prefering the sound of new violins are making new violins, let that be, me im restoring antique violins and prefer the sound of old violins, while many of you would like to believe im in the minority just ask players, its not so, most customers would prefer an antique if they could afford a good one.

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