Ken_N Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Good thing this is a violin forum, that title would be bad otherwise! I pulled the belly off the ribs yesterday to replace a small piece of rib in a corner. To my surprise it weighs 84g. The edges are 2.5mm, the middle is around 3mm, the middle of the bouts is around 2mm. It is red spruce, I thought it measured .48sg. Usually I use Englemann about .3- .33sg, although another with wild bear claw was .38g. That one weighs 60g, It has similar thicknesses, but the center area is only 2.5mm and the 2mm area is larger. Using the stiffness formulas...freq^2 X grams, the bear claw one is a little too flimsy. I was trying to get something stiffer by trying the red spruce, so I don't want to get it flimsy! Anyone have any success with a belly that heavy? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_Molnar Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Everything you wrote makes sense. The red spruce is too dense and the plate is too thick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oded Kishony Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 what's the stiffness of the red spruce top? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Noon Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 Anyone have any success with a belly that heavy? Ken Nope. I have regraduated one fiddle from 90 to 78 grams, which was a great improvement... but I think wood that dense isn't going to work as well as something more reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lyndon Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 you guys obviously dont know anything about european spruce it tends to be just as dense as red spruce, engelmann is a lot lighter than european, but not all european is heavy, just the best stuff tends to be, red spuce is incredible tone you already have your violin top on the thin side why not go ahead and try finishing it like that???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anders Buen Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 I had a violin for repair here with a 83g top that sounded quite good. The best out of 10 chinese varnished violins I bought a couple of years ago also had a 79g top. I rated them at 8 out of 10. These numbers are outliers. The three violins in my set rated at 9 all have a top plate weight below 70g. It depends on what you prefer. Regarding top plate density: The Hardanger fiddles in my data set tend towards being rated higher at lower top plate densities. But for the violins there is no clear trend. A low density top is no secure way to a successful instrument not even if the top is graduated classical Strad like. I have rated them myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janito Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 With all due respect, the comments relating to heavy tops not working are not coming from professional makers. I have handled some pretty heavy instruments that played well, so it would be very useful to get a broader spectrum of feedback on the >80g (high-weight) top question. For example, does it take a special arch design to make dense tops work? ps - my suspicion is that low-density tops are more forgiving and therefore work well under a broader range of circumstances - hence the potential for biased opinions to arise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oded Kishony Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 A stiffness factor between 7-8 should work well. heavier tops don't respond as well but can sound quite good. Better suited to a player with a strong/heavy bow arm. Not very good for beginning players. Oded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 My very consistent experience has been that if you have [what I think is] a well-conceived and executed arching you can get away with a lot in terms of graduation. I've made some pretty silly-heavy violins (tops approaching 4mm, backs over 6.5mm) that have been perfectly responsive and good in all respects, but only after I developed my arch. Before that, doing such a thing was consistently hopeless. My feeling about it at this stage is that if the arch moves easily and appropriately, then throwing extra weight on it doesn't matter much, and a lot of other options open up. If an arch is too inflexible in the wrong ways, or inconsistently inflexible, then in order to get it to move in the right ways you have to remove a lot of dead weight. The easiest way to make a violin appear to work is do anything you want with the arch and then graduate it so thin that weight doesn't matter (this is why regraduation can appear to work wonders, regardless of whether it's via some supposedly magical tuning plan or blindfolded), but the effect and options aren't as broad as you have when you start with a good structural design (one that moves in all the right ways and none of the wrong ones) and then use graduations to work with that. In the current context, though, it's certainly a lot more informative, and not that difficult, to finish the violin as it is now, and then go back and take out some weight later if it turns out not to work, and that's what I'd do, myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Noon Posted July 12, 2011 Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 It depends on what you prefer. heavier tops don't respond as well but can sound quite good. Oded I should qualify my prevous answer... dense and/or heavy tops can sound fine. Personally, I prefer quick response and the most sound for a given bow effort, and those properties I don't believe will come from a top that is dense and heavy. It may actually be more challenging to get a nice tone from the lightweight stuff. In the current context, though, it's certainly a lot more informative, and not that difficult, to finish the violin as it is now, and then go back and take out some weight later if it turns out not to work, and that's what I'd do, myself. An excellent recommendation, and I would do this too... if I could get my scraper turned off sooner. It just seems to keep going until the top is thinner and lighter than I intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_N Posted July 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2011 The mode 5 is 304. It never was high. Even thick it was not up to 360 or so. I'm sure that's just the way this piece of wood was from the beginning. So the stiffness comes out to 7.75. By far the stiffest I've done. I have another belly, for a birch back that has a very low tap tone that is very thick, low density without f holes and bass bar it is 388 and 72 grams. Like Don says, I must usually go too far. As Jim Carrey said "Somebody stop me". I'll take Michael's recommendation and give it a go as is. If I did want to thin it later what would the effects be of thinning the center area, where it is the thickest, or the bouts where there is more area? Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_Molnar Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 With all due respect, the comments ... are not coming from professional makers. ... . Ouch! Don't tell that to the players of my violins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oded Kishony Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 So the stiffness comes out to 7.75. By far the stiffest I've done. What stiffness number do you usually aim for? Why are you not applying that to this top? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actonern Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 "In the current context, though, it's certainly a lot more informative, and not that difficult, to finish the violin as it is now, and then go back and take out some weight later if it turns out not to work, and that's what I'd do, myself." Am I to understand that the overall quality of sound of the instrument is not that closely related to a careful "synchronization" of stiffness or anything else between top and back plates... that the back can, within reason, be rather variable, and the top alone can be adjusted to shape the sound to "perfection."? Best regards, E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janito Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 My very consistent experience has been that if you have [what I think is] a well-conceived and executed arching you can get away with a lot in terms of graduation. ----- My feeling about it at this stage is that if the arch moves easily and appropriately, By appropriate movement, do you mean that the top and bottom bout move equally 'easily' when the plate is flexed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezzupe Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 By appropriate movement, do you mean that the top and bottom bout move equally 'easily' when the plate is flexed? This is a good question, I think he'll say no. Appropriate movement implies moving the "right way". everyone knows that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Darnton Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 I'll tell you; it's more than a little discouraging to realize that virtually everything I have said here in the last ten years seems to have passed in one ear and out the other of the people who read this forum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James M. Jones Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 I'll tell you; it's more than a little discouraging to realize that virtually everything I have said here in the last ten years seems to have passed in one ear and out the other of the people who read this forum! Please don't get discouraged!... As an almost complete Newbee I have learned a great deal from your posts... I have noticed that with so many diverse personality here, a lot gets said, and a lot never gets heard...As one of my mentors(U Utah Phillips) said "You can lead a horse to water but you can't rip his lips off!" with the violin as a subject of conversation getting folks all moving in lock step just is not possible... the recent thread on fingerboard tilt or sugar seal or modern VS ancient works..should show the diverse ideas of the membership....So please keep up your posts.. and... what do you consider a good arch? is it peaked or flat on top? is there a lot of recurve from the edge or does it rise quickly? what is bad flex? Good flex? thanks Michael for your time, patience, and consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmccarthy Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Noon Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 I think some of the problem would be helped if the search routine was a bit more functional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James M. Jones Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 I think some of the problem would be helped if the search routine was a bit more functional. I have a constant problem with search even the advanced app. googling MN and the topic helps ,,,Not a critisim of MN or it's Administrators, thanks for the work.... just sometimes the road to where we're going isn't all smooth and narrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNewbie Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 I'll tell you; it's more than a little discouraging to realize that virtually everything I have said here in the last ten years seems to have passed in one ear and out the other of the people who read this forum! You are not alone, as Roger Hargrave has voiced the exact same sentiment! I can sometimes get bumped around a little, and it discourages me, but then I think about all those times that I might have accidentally helped someone and then everything seems to fall into the right place. You once said something like 'If anyone tries to do all that is suggested here then they will have a very hard time.' But I will say that If anyone who is trying to follow all the posts here will concentrate on one poster at a time instead, they will avoid a lot of very hard times. I think they could not pick anyone better than yourself to follow. I would though avoid that 'stradofear' cat as he is nothing like you! Keep it flyin'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scordatura Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 I used to be an admin of a very active board. We used a different software (vBulletin) and had some problems with the search. It was better than here at MN but only a bit. The indexing was an absolute pig with resources though. We scheduled it for the wee hours of the morning. Fond memories...The board software is not bad othewise here at MN. Someone should sticky to use google to search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_N Posted July 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 Oded, I'd use the stiffness calculation when it was thick, then checked it after going to the regular grads and it would be on the low end. After f holes and bass bar it would be low. This time I'm at least on the high end! I have a chance on the thick one to do it better. I think the Ole Bull is probably stiffer, but I never took it off after finishing it to see. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_N Posted July 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 Well, I did some thinning. Mainly just getting things even, thinning the middle, and widening the thin areas of the bouts. Got it down to 82.2g and pitch dropped to 295. Gives a number of 7.15. I'll leave it there. That little thinning made an huge difference in how stiff it FEELS. It actually feels about the same is the bear claw one that rings at 318, but is only 61.6g. That stiffness number is 6.23. The red spruce one I can actually see the bass bar working when I push where the bridge will be. The other I don't see that movement. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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