E. Sartory violin bow

[mrb123]

Hi I have acquired a violin bow, "E Sartory A Paris" stamped on it, from an estate. It is in good condition, no cracks, straight as an arrow, however the inlaid eyes are missing. There is a stamp underneath the frog, a W or N, depending on orientation.

Also the silver windings are tarnished, and I have not attempted to clean it up. That is best left to an expert, in my opinion.

I understand that these bows are considered valuable. Can anyone advise as to approximate value that these bows have been selling for? I am interested in selling it. I would appreciate any input!

Thanks

Here is a link to my pics on Flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/26526751@N05/?saved=1

Edited July 10, 2011 by mrb123

[danielmiller]

I would advise taking the bow to a reputable appraiser in the bowed instrument world. A genuine Sartory bow could be very valuable and it would be good for you to get proper documentation. Could you upload some photos of the bow?

[scordatura]

How does 20K...ish strike you? Good luck.

[mrb123]

I would advise taking the bow to a reputable appraiser in the bowed instrument world. A genuine Sartory bow could be very valuable and it would be good for you to get proper documentation. Could you upload some photos of the bow?

I have some photos now, not sure where to upload them to. "Insert image" calls for a http address. Any help is appreciated

[skiingfiddler]

The missing mother-of-pearl eyes in the frog is no big deal. Over time those get washed away by hand sweat anyway.

You're doing the right thing in not trying to fix up the bow yourself. As a first step, you might consider taking the bow to an experienced bow repair person, some of whom post here on Maestronet. Getting an appraised value may be less important than just getting an answer to the question, "Is this a good bow?" And then getting an estimate of what it would cost to repair it properly. It might not be a Sartory, but it could be a good bow anyway, one you're glad to have and use once it's in playing shape.

[Omobono]

I guess you don't mind this pic being uploaded from your flickr site

(since you referred to it.)

[fiddlecollector]

Looks quite convincing for a Sartory ,is the silver ferrule missing also??

[mrb123]

Looks quite convincing for a Sartory ,is the silver ferrule missing also??

The windings are on and fully intact, however tarnished...I am not sure what the ferrule is.

[mrb123]

Looks quite convincing for a Sartory ,is the silver ferrule missing also??

Yes, the ferrule is missing.

[danielmiller]

A good restorer can give you give you an estimate on the repair. The eyes are no big deal, but the missing ferrule will detract from the value. Not sure how much, that is why you need to take it to an appraiser, it will be much easier to sell with proper docs.

[Brad Dorsey]

A good restorer can give you give you an estimate on the repair. The eyes are no big deal, but the missing ferrule will detract from the value...

I think that a good restorer could make a replacement ferrule that no one would be able to tell from the original. Hence I wouldn't expect any detraction in value beyond the cost of the new ferrule and pearl eyes -- maybe $200-300. It looks like a Sartory to me.

[David Burgess]

I think that a good restorer could make a replacement ferrule that no one would be able to tell from the original. Hence I wouldn't expect any detraction in value beyond the cost of the new ferrule and pearl eyes -- maybe $200-300. It looks like a Sartory to me.

Would the replacement part be disclosed to a buyer?

How to handle repairs and replacement parts is a continuing dilemma in our business.

[Ed Shillitoe]

You can see some pictures of several authentic Sartory violin bows at the Tarisio site - both from the June sale and the upcoming July sale.

Compare the shape of the front and back of the head with this bow - and especially the shape of the nose. Also take a look at the name stamp - the size of letters and overall obviousness of the stamp. What do you see?

Ed

[Brad Dorsey]

Would the replacement part be disclosed to a buyer?...

I believe that it should be. But I also have to wonder what difference it really makes if the replacement is indistinguishable from the original.

[mrb123]

You can see some pictures of several authentic Sartory violin bows at the Tarisio site - both from the June sale and the upcoming July sale.

Compare the shape of the front and back of the head with this bow - and especially the shape of the nose. Also take a look at the name stamp - the size of letters and overall obviousness of the stamp. What do you see?

Ed

Unfortunately, I am not experienced to spot any major differences. Most bows all look the same to me.

Any info and opinions are appreciated!!

[Omobono]

Not untypical of the Sartory style.

Maybe a bit more of a Tourte line about the head than most?

(but photos can be deceptive)

[Josh Henry]

... But I also have to wonder what difference it really makes if the replacement is indistinguishable from the original.

And that is really the crux of the issue. Purely from a player's standpoint--there is no difference. However, from purely a collector's point of view--there is a huge difference. As David mentioned above--it is really a dilemma in the business.

In restoration, I've made replacement parts for bows (like ferrules, underslides, button rings, and even entire frogs and buttons). There have been a couple times that bows with replacement parts that I've made have later been certified "all original' by recognized experts. To many, replaced parts on a bow may not be a big deal, and if identified and priced accordingly, then it isn't. However, if a seller's intent is to deceive, and sell something with a replacement part as "all original" and priced as such, then fundamentally, there is a problem.

This bow looks like a nice bow, but it will have a replacement ferrule when it gets sold. The pearl eye replacements will not be such a big deal, but the replaced ferrule will be when it passes before someone for certification. The fact that there are replacement parts should be disclosed to the certifier and to the seller--whether or not it is judged an authentic Sartory bow.

...Just my opinion...

[skiingfiddler]

The fact that there are replacement parts should be disclosed to the certifier and to the seller--whether or not it is judged an authentic Sartory bow.

Josh's statement deserves repeating, and it reflects the kind of honesty I know I will get in dealing with Josh.

[Brad Dorsey]

...Purely from a player's standpoint--there is no difference. However, from purely a collector's point of view--there is a huge difference...The fact that there are replacement parts should be disclosed to the certifier and to the seller--whether or not it is judged an authentic Sartory bow...

It seems to me that if it turns out not to be a genuine Sartory, then the bow would be of no interest to collectors, making the replacement ferrule irrelevant.

[mrb123]

Thanks for your info. I would never hide any repairs, etc. to a potential buyer.

Having said that, I would sell it as-is, then the buyer can have their work done at their favorite luthier.

Circumstances due to health costs have made my decision to sell this bow. I have been playing for only a year or so, I doubt I could do it justice!!

Or maybe it will make me sound better??? LOL

[skiingfiddler]

If it is a good bow, and not just another mass produced trade bow, I would hope that the restorer would put in exactly the same care into making the replacement parts, whether the bow is a Sartory or not. But maybe I'm just naive.

[skiingfiddler]

Thanks for your info. I would never hide any repairs, etc. to a potential buyer.

Having said that, I would sell it as-is, then the buyer can have their work done at their favorite luthier.

Circumstances due to health costs have made my decision to sell this bow. I have been playing for only a year or so, I doubt I could do it justice!!

Or maybe it will make me sound better??? LOL

If you are certain that you want to sell it, then you will definitely want to get it appraised by someone whose opinion carries some weight in the violin trade.

You might try to get an informal, verbal appraisal first, where you can find out whether it's worth going for a a formal, written appraisal. The formal, written appraisal, if done by someone who is also a restorer, would contain, I hope, the value of the bow if it were in top shape and the cost of getting it into top shape.

I have a suspicion that you might be better off, financially, getting the bow in top shape by someone who is more interested in just restoring the bow properly rather than determining whether it's a genuine Sartory or any other big name. Then, after the bow's in playing shape and its playing characteristics can be part of the valuation process, you can go for a formal, documented valuation if you suspect it's a big name bow. That might maximize your financial return.

That process of restoring it first might be, however, more of a hassle than just handing all of those non-functional pieces to a dealer and asking to be paid what it's worth, as is. But I think the "as is" price could be a surprisingly low one, even if it is a genuine big name bow.

[jacobsaunders]

Since everybody else seems fairly exited about this bow, I feel pretty grumpy to be, quite true to character, a bit sceptical.

I first looked at Omobono’s (thank-you!) pictures and wondered if it could be real. I considered the possibility that the head could possibly be real, but have been ruined by somebody of minimal manual dexterity, making a pig’s ear of a new ivory tip. I would normally expect the ring around the “Paris eye” on the Frog of a Sartory to be made from a silver tube, and not some (largely copper) wire, as I imagine to make out from these photographs. I would just like to ask mrb123, if there is some roman numeral scratched into the underside of the stick (where the thumb leather is) and a corresponding roman numeral on the top (where you normally can’t see it) of the frog.

Never mind medical costs, I’m told that Mr Obama pays for them now.

[mrb123]

Since everybody else seems fairly exited about this bow, I feel pretty grumpy to be, quite true to character, a bit sceptical.

I first looked at Omobono’s (thank-you!) pictures and wondered if it could be real. I considered the possibility that the head could possibly be real, but have been ruined by somebody of minimal manual dexterity, making a pig’s ear of a new ivory tip. I would normally expect the ring around the “Paris eye” on the Frog of a Sartory to be made from a silver tube, and not some (largely copper) wire, as I imagine to make out from these photographs. I would just like to ask mrb123, if there is some roman numeral scratched into the underside of the stick (where the thumb leather is) and a corresponding roman numeral on the top (where you normally can’t see it) of the frog.

Never mind medical costs, I’m told that Mr Obama pays for them now.

There is a "W" or "M" stamped near the opening on the stick, however there is no visible markings on the underside of the frog.

And, as far as medical costs go, my prescriptions are not covered. These costs are substantial for someone like myself who gets a small disability check. Now, back to business, LOL

[Ratcliffiddles]

Looks absolutely right to me in every respect