Back Graduation...

[jacobsaunders]

As a scientist I really understand statistics. However, I am not satisfied by your explanation. I wish Roger Hargrave, who made the measurements in the McKenzie poster (and probably others I can't obtain), would weigh in on the essential question of why he measures 2.5 mm at the edge of the plate when Sacconi shows a thickness of 3.3 mm extending from the edge of the plate to about 20 mm into the plate. It is hard for me to believe this is a result of averaging or some belief that Sacconi had.

As I think Michael allready indicated, the difference is:

We had the Muir-Macenzie open in the Machold workshop in Bremen back then in the 80's and were quite in awe at the untouched condition of the inside work. We took all of the measurements faithfully and exactly to the 10th of a mm. This was a straight a report of actual fact. The Sacconni book, by contrast, reports what Sacconni thought Strad should have done, if he had had any sense. Your choice.

[Salve Håkedal]

...

The Sacconni book, by contrast, reports what Sacconni thought Strad should have done, if he had had any sense.

...

When reading Sacconis book, I never felt he was arrogant against Stradivari. Quite the contrary: there is a lot of admiration.

[martin swan]

Doc - I think you are paying too much attention to Sacconi's graduation information, perhaps because it is laid out on the page in a convincing manner and is easy to put into practice. Michael Darnton, Jacob Saunders and Roger Hargrave (all of whom have picked over the inside a Strad with a fine toothcomb) have claimed that his measurements are way off, and I think you have to believe them, not Sacconi.

Michael has pointed out that "averaging out" thicknesses from various different violins is a mug's game, since the key to success in building a violin is to graduate each set of plates differently, according to its specific natural characteristics.

Melvin Goldsmith has hinted in a very mild way that Sacconi's own instruments are maybe not so great - I've had some experience of violins made by "followers of Sacconi", and have felt only pain ....

You are a scientist and understand statistics, but this approach doesn't lead to good violins. You just have to read this thread or almost any other on maestronet to see that the variables are uncontrollable, and that only intense practice and personal study can possibly bring results.

I think it would be much better to follow the graduations on a Strad poster than anything Sacconi suggests.

[Craig Tucker]

I think it would be much better to follow the graduations on a Strad poster than anything Sacconi suggests.

Yes, this is a revelation for many people who take Sacconi at his word - verbatim. Its a Great Book for some things - not so great for other things.

I've read and reread it because there are many astute observations in the book - many good ideas.

Still, I think of it more as a signpost in the wilderness, pointing roughly in the direction of civilazation than a detailed map.

The thickness, graduations - and for me in particular, the "topographical" maps (showing the exterior arch elevations) are undoubtedly idealized and intended as a suggestion only of what was observed directly.

The chapter on varnish might as well be used for kindling...

Still, a highly recommended read - way more valuable a tome than one which I could produce, having barely seen any of the instruments in question, more interesting than the ideas of many people who didn't have extensive (or any) access to the real McCoy, but who make claims anyway.

It's more a book of firsthand observations, and the ideas drawn from them, than a Makers Bible.

[martin swan]

CT - it must be 3 in the morning in New Mexico - shouldn't you be in bed (reading Sacconi)?

[Craig Tucker]

CT - it must be 3 in the morning in New Mexico - shouldn't you be in bed (reading Sacconi)?

Some days I am quite the insomniac...

Luckily, I am in the middle of repairs still (see; "What's on your bench" thread), and will be drinking my (early) morning coffee at the workbench.

[jacobsaunders]

When reading Sacconis book, I never felt he was arrogant against Stradivari. Quite the contrary: there is a lot of admiration.

I’m the very last person to accuse Sacconi of arrogance vis a vis Strad. I do however feel that he was a bit full of himself, and tended to overuse the intellectually lazy method of saying “Strad this” or “Strad that” in order to render any discussion or contradiction positively blasphemous. One can spend decades picking through the book finding large and small red herrings that hardly stand up to a reality check when compared to the real thing. The first (admittedly trivial) red herring that upset me was the bogus construction of the “Vignola Spiral” in the description of how the scroll was plotted out. I went to the London University library, where I found an original manuscript from Vignola, whose real name was Giacomo Barozzi, and published this in the Journal of the VSA (Vol. V, No. 1, Winter 1978/79).

The Strad poster of the Muir Macenzie was the first Strad poster ever, and it is perhaps worthwhile recollecting how it came to pass:

The then editor of the Strad, Anne Inglis, unexpectedly (to me) came to visit Bremen. This was either very brave or very foolhardy of her, since she was captive in the workshop with all nine of us determined to tell her what abject shit her magazine was. A normal reaction would have been to burst into tears, but Anne proved to be tough as nails and counter-attacked by saying that we should write something or think of some innovation for the magazine. The result of the following brainstorming was a picture feature of Fraulein Professor Grevesmühle’s Strad, which was in for relatively minor repair. This has gone into vm. lore as Roger’s innovation, was in fact a collective effort (Roger is quite good at getting his name on anything good). As I remember it, the measurements were done by Julie Reed-Yaboah, and then a second time by William Castle, to be absolutely sure that there were no inaccuracies. Roger coerced Dietmar Machold into sponsoring the whole idea, so credit where credit is due, because Dietmar hasn’t been getting a very good press lately. Nobody thought that the “Strad Poster” would become the long term classic, which it has, since it is still the best reason to subscribe to the magazine.

[David Burgess]

Actually, I think the graduation maps in the Sacconi book are one of the things which has had the most value to makers, and a pretty good starting point. And I don't think it's a bad stab at trying to reconstruct some kind of concept or theme which Stradivari might have had, underlying all the variables.

On the top, I don't recall whether he is giving a dimension of 2.7 at the edge of the ffs, or if the area between the ffs is included. If the center area is included, perhaps some repair experience is rolled in. As far as I can tell, there is no downside to leaving that area thicker, and a number of advantages.

I agree with Jacob, that it would be nice if the book had used more tentative language, because it reads pretty well if taken in that context. I don't know whether the style in the book was Sacconi's normal way, or if someone urged him to write the book in an authoritative sounding way. I'd need to check with someone who worked with him.

For instance, in the varnish chapter, it would have been helpful if he had said,

"Based on the scientific data we have so far, and what I have observed, here is a plausible reconstruction of Stradivari's varnish".

[Doc Eastman]

Actually, I think the graduation maps in the Sacconi book are one of the things which has had the most value to makers, and a pretty good starting point. And I don't think it's a bad stab at trying to reconstruct some kind of concept or theme which Stradivari might have had, underlying all the variables.

On the top, I don't recall whether he is giving a dimension of 2.7 at the edge of the ffs, or if the area between the ffs is included. If the center area is included, perhaps some repair experience is rolled in. As far as I can tell, there is no downside to leaving that area thicker, and a number of advantages.

I agree with Jacob, that it would be nice if the book had used more tentative language, because it reads pretty well if taken in that context. I don't know whether the style in the book was Sacconi's normal way, or if someone urged him to write the book in an authoritative sounding way. I'd need to check with someone who worked with him.

For instance, in the varnish chapter, it would have been helpful if he had said,

"Based on the scientific data we have so far, and what I have observed, here is a plausible reconstruction of Stradivari's varnish".

Thanks so much to all who have commented on my question. I now get it. The historical perspective is extremely interesting and helpful. Glad I have been following the Strad posters.

[David Burgess]

Glad I have been following the Strad posters.

Be careful about that too. Try to take your cues from a known exceptional-sounding instrument, and one which isn't so thin that structural problems can be expected.

[Michael Darnton]

For me, the most interesting historical (and at this time, Sacconi is really historical, not current) presentation of Strad grads is in the Hill book. Initially they didn't seem like much too me, but as I began to map more and more Strads, it became apparent that the Hills gave a much clearer view of what Stradivari was up to. From them, if you're clever and you know the instruments they associate with, you can draw for yourself a very good picture of what Stradivari was really doing. In that context, Sacconi is downright misleading--there are characteristics of his back grads, as simple as they are, that I've seen in only one instrument of the 70 or so that I have measurements of, and that violin was atypical in other respects, too. Doing what Sacconi had failed to draw correctly proved to be a real eye-opener for me about how backs work, as did some simple statistical analyses of grads that weren't as poorly conceived as Sacconi's gross averaging.

These days, of course, that kind of thing is out there for everyone to see, with all of the charts that are easily available, so inquisitive makers can work this all out for themselves. And of course, there are always the Maestronet archives . . .

[David Burgess]

Does Jeff Loen still sell his collection of graduation maps? If so, that's a resource which many have found useful, and includes more measurements than most of us will be able to acquire any other way, presented in a format which makes it easy to look for themes.

On violin backs, I've always used, and still do, something pretty close to the Sacconi construct, with good results. Departures are mostly related to varying properties of individual pieces of wood.

[Grandini]

Those graduation maps are very interesting, these are from the Strad article December 2002.

[lyndon]

its like having a window seat at the OK corral, the big guys duking it out!!

[Michael Darnton]

I don't think we really disagree, Lyndon. We just have observations of different spots of the same subject, and different mental machinery operating. No one's gonna get shot.

[David Burgess]

Those graduation maps are very interesting, these are from the Strad article December 2002.

Are those Loen's? If not, it's the same kind of thing he's done, with a large number of instruments. Makes it easy to look for themes.

[lyndon]

I don't think we really disagree, Lyndon. We just have observations of different spots of the same subject, and different mental machinery operating. No one's gonna get shot.

right but david "hulk" burgess might smash that violin if he gets really teed

[Michael Darnton]

It would be nice to have more charts, but on these it's easy to see the transition from the Amati-style vertical oval center thickness to Strad's own horizontal belt. Too bad the last 20 years aren't represented at all.

[Grandini]

Are those Loen's? If not, it's the same kind of thing he's done, with a large number of instruments. Makes it easy to look for themes.

Yes, they're from his Strad article. Does anyone know where you can order the others from?

[David Burgess]

Yes, they're from his Strad article. Does anyone know where you can order the others from?

Haven't been in touch with him for a while.

Maybe try calling or emailing? http://www.kenmoreviolins.com/contactus.htm

[David Burgess]

right but david "hulk" burgess might smash that violin if he gets really teed

I need to save aggressive behavior for later.

Tonight, our little town will be overrun with 140,000 maniacal, and probably intoxicated football fans. Some tickets are reportedly selling for thousands of dollars.

[jacobsaunders]

I need to save aggressive behavior for later.

Tonight, our little town will be overrun with 140,000 maniacal, and probably intoxicated football fans. Some tickets are reportedly selling for thousands of dollars.

Is David Beckham playing then?

[Doc Eastman]

Those graduation maps are very interesting, these are from the Strad article December 2002.

Do you know what technique was used to generate these maps (direct measurement, ultrasound?,??)

[Doc Eastman]

Be careful about that too. Try to take your cues from a known exceptional-sounding instrument, and one which isn't so thin that structural problems can be expected.

Good advice. Has the Mckenzie had any structural problems you know of since the poster was published in 1985, when there had been no significant repairs?

[David Burgess]

I don't know whether the style in the book was Sacconi's normal way, or if someone urged him to write the book in an authoritative sounding way. I'd need to check with someone who worked with him.

I just got off the phone with William Salchow, who spent a great deal of time working around Sacconi. He said that Sacconi was the sweetest, most humble, least dogmatic person one could ever know. He was that way to a fault. Bill said that he often failed to stick up for himself, or his personal priorities, like teaching, and gave numerous examples. That reminded me of Bill telling me years ago about the day Sacconi's son got fired from Wurlitzer. Sacconi just accepted it, and never even said a word.

Here's the poop on the book, according to Salchow:

Sacconi didn't write the text himself. It was done by someone else, a writer or something, who basically listened to Sacconi's ideas, and put the book together. Bill said that Sacconi was always learning, his ideas were always changing, and that he was always experimenting, so the book represents just a snapshot in time of Sacconi's ideas, seen, interpreted and prioritized through the eyes of someone else.

Hope that clears things up a bit. There seems to be some disrespect for Sacconi based on the book, but I don't remember ever talking to anyone who actually knew him or worked with him, who didn't hold him in very high esteem.