yet another question for Roger Hargrave....


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Melvin, How would you relate that to the graphics here then? In what way is del Gesù more directly linked to the Amati?

Conceptualisation? Technical execution?

amatischool.jpg

schools.gif

It`s nice to see that you didn`t forget Stainer on your graphic of Amati pupils, but do you really think he lived to be 162 years old?

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But there is no question that his tools were duller and his lines were less crisp and elegant. Discussion is an easy next step.

Quite, but a 'discussion' didn't seem uppermost in your mind when you originally responded with, 'There is no case to be made otherwise!'.

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It`s nice to see that you didn`t forget Stainer on your graphic of Amati pupils, but do you really think he lived to be 162 years old?

Not my graphic, of course, but well spotted. When I checked other sources I immediately found three different sets of birth & death dates. Looks like no one is sure? I will correct the graphic with an approximation.

You missed the fact that Girolamo II was born after his father was dead as well....

Did you also notice that Hieronymus Amati II and Nicolò lived almost as long as Stradivari himself?

That at least may be true.

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You missed the fact that Girolamo II was born after his father was dead as well....

Yes, gettig careless in my old age!

Re Stainer; Neither his date of birth or death is actually known, however there is, in the course of his herasy trial, a letter of his from 16th. September 1688 in which he describes himself as "almost 50 years old" ie. 1618 or 1619. He is presumed to have died about 1683, although this can`t be confirmed with documentary evidence either.

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Yes, gettig careless in my old age!

Re Stainer; Neither his date of birth or death is actually known, however there is, in the course of his herasy trial, a letter of his from 16th. September 1688 in which he describes himself as "almost 50 years old" ie. 1618 or 1619. He is presumed to have died about 1683, although this can`t be confirmed with documentary evidence either.

I love this sort of gem! Neat, thank you.

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In terms of what matters del Gesu gets more right more of the time. This is because he has a more direct link to the Amati tradition. If you look at the work of Stradivari and del Gesu and judge it buy the Amati tradition del Gesu wins.

(My emphasis above)

Melvin,

That's what I see in photos of Strad and del Gesu, too.

As far as classical Cremona goes, Stradivari, to me, was the most divergent from the Amati outline. If one is willing to consider the argument that Strad was not directly trained by Nicolo Amati -- Charles Beare makes that argument, and Toby Faber suggests that Strad's early training was by a wood carver, Francesco Pescaroli, not by a violin maker -- then understanding why Stradivari was the outsider, go-your-own-way guy in an otherwise Amati centered Cremona is easy.

One bit of further evidence that contributes to the notion that Stradivari was the go-your-own-way outsider in Cremona is the Hills' mention of the influence of Stainer on Italian violin making. Per the Hills, after the rise of Stainer as a very popular maker, almost every maker in Italy, the Guarneris included, was influenced by Stainer at some point or another, with one exception: Antonio Stradivari.

PS: Before someone jumps all over me for ignoring the early Stradivari instruments which are termed Amatise, I'd add that everything is relative, and I'm not claiming that the instruments of the Amatis exerted no influence over Stradivari, just that the influence was less on Stradivari than on the other makers in Cremona.

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Melvin, fascinating and thought-provoking. There is a perception that del Gesu is the one who diverges from the classical forms.

Yes, when you once start to think about it that way: perhaps that deviation is mostly found in rather "superficial" aspects really... tiny variations in outline, the execution of the scroll and design of f-holes.

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perhaps that deviation is mostly found in rather "superficial" aspects really... tiny variations in outline, the execution of the scroll and design of f-holes.

Yes, hardly radical re-engineering of the basic model when you think about a 200 year intervening period between

Andrea Amati and Guarneri del Gesù.

4544545x.jpg

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Yes, hardly radical re-engineering of the basic model when you think about a 200 year intervening period between

Andrea Amati and Guarneri del Gesù.

4544545x.jpg

Thanks for sharing the images...as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words, and the two you have shared say quite a lot!!!

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the violin on the right looks a lot wider and the f holes look a lot wonkier, are those really genuine del gesu f holes, i thought the holes were supposed to be round, not oval on italian.....

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This the Ole Bull del Gesu of 1744 ...( post 63) so It's a late one exhibiting some hasty workmanship but genius design. Something earlier like the Kreisler del Gesu or the Stretton are interesting to compare to late Strads....work from the mid 1730s like the Plowden recently featured as a Strad poster illustrate what del Gesu was capable of if he wanted to be neat...Imagine if he'd had the luck like Stradivari to live way beyond the life expectancy of the time..!

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Yes, hardly radical re-engineering of the basic model when you think about a 200 year intervening period between

Andrea Amati and Guarneri del Gesù.

Well, the Amati yellow is certainly persistent. biggrin.gif

So was del Gesù cutting edge, or the leader of the “Back to Brescia” movement?

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Yes, hardly radical re-engineering of the basic model when you think about a 200 year intervening period between

Andrea Amati and Guarneri del Gesù.

4544545x.jpg

Actually, given the range of Italian violin shapes, I don’t see a huge similarity. The GdG’s C’s are longer, and the upper and lower bout wider, the body longer. Not as radically different as say, A. Amati and Rogeri, but still different.

Perhaps the Maestro of Comparison could show us GdG along with his father’s work? I would honestly be interested in that comparison.

Thanks!

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I don't know.....Having heard this violin live in the hands of a great player I remain in awe

I see. I thought perhaps there was something different in construction that I was unaware of. I always thought his work to be relatively rushed and sloppy compared to many of the other Cremonese makers. If it's the sound quality though, you can't discredit DG for that.

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You've piqued my curiosity. What specific design innovations display the work of genius?

"The soundholes seem to be scrawled across the front like graffiti. The arching is low and almost sunken. The varnish is sallow and pale, and the edge is crunched and broken by the gouge. ... yet even in this radical manifestation the rules of Cremonese design are rigorously followed.

From the full arch of the Cannon and the Sauret we come abruptly to this almost skeletal form. The large soundholes and strongly wooded plates combine to provide a dark tone associated with the wild Brescians of the previous century which are presumed to be the inspriation. Its sound has a deep earthy quality that few players can master. In appearance it is confrontational, a challenge to traditional notions of craftsmanship and aesthetics."

(from Ole Bull 2010 - Guarneri del Gesù Collection, catalogue P. 50)

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