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ilovefiddle

Samuel Nemessanyi

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2nd post: No need to patronize, Mr. Moderator, I'm a grown man and past retirement.

1st post: So, moderator, please stop censoring my posts, or from henceforth censor everyone's posts who make derogatory comments. Fair is fair and fair is enough for all.

Patronizing? Pot calling the Kettle... Glass houses...

Are you pushing to have me actually "censor" your input rather than just review it? Can be arranged.

BTW: You are probably less anonymous than you might think.

Now, I'd appreciate if those participating would back to the subject of the thread.

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Jeremyamoto, sorry I'm not sure if they are "antiquing marks"(I'm thinking no) under the vanish since it's an "antiqute", I could hardly differenciate. But I think it'd be a very good "antiquing" (if it is) in mid-19th century I suppose, it seems that only the back has "antiquing"

Dear all, anyone take a guess? Origin or schools of the violin can at least give me a hint to track back the history and find an appropiate appraiser. (yes, let's get back to poor ilovefiddle's violin and what the thing actually is)

Let me post the photos again, and thank you all again!

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Edited by ilovefiddle

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I was told recently that the Scots eat deep-fried Mars-Bars.

One of those, and an Irn Bru, and you're ready for some of Martin's Heedrum-Hodrum Heuchter-Teuchter! laugh.gif

Addie = fan cool.gif

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Jeremyamoto, sorry I'm not sure if they are "antiquing marks"(I'm thinking no) under the vanish since it's an "antiqute", I could hardly differenciate. But I think it'd be a very good "antiquing" (if it is) in mid-19th century I suppose, it seems that only the back has "antiquing"

Dear all, anyone take a guess? Origin or schools of the violin can at least give me a hint to track back the history and find an appropiate appraiser. (yes, let's get back to poor ilovefiddle's violin and what the thing actually is)

Let me post the photos again, and thank you all again!

Wherever it was made and by whom, no matter... I think it's a very nice instrument. If it sounds as good as it looks then I reckon you're a winner. ( If it was mine it would have a name by now !!! :D )

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Still think you should send photos to Bromptons ....

I like the last set of photos. But will stand by my feeling that it's Bohemian, and I also think there may be a bit of antiqueing - but this was quite common even in the mid 19th century.

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I love the allusion to Keyser Soze which was a fascinating movie. I know of a Spiegel that is for sale for around/over 20K right now in Chicago - it's a lovely instrument. And I am relieved that there is evidence that Nemessanyi is not Keyser Soze.

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Thanks again Martin! Actually I forgot to mention that I did send the photos to Bromptons 3 months ago, but got no reply at all. I was thinking my violin isn't good enough to be examined by experts, so they just ignore it.

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Dear mysticpaw, thanks, and yes the sound is great and show a lot of characteristic. This makes me even more curious - the person who made this standard of violin should not be a maker without reputation at that time, how come no one recognize his work, or school of work, or even origin!? I'm so puzzled.

ps. what will you name it?

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youve got to be kidding, youre asking for the next to impossible, appraising from pictures, your idea that you violin is so good it has to be a recognizable maker, not true at all, tonnes of great makers were anonomous, youve already got a lot of information out of people here, id be happy for that and go on from there.

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ps i just noticed that this violin in question has a clearly genuine neck scroll graft, which would be rather unusual for 1870, more likely pre 1850, perhaps even late 1700s, of course theres a small possibility it was made with a graft or the neck was broken hence the graft

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ps i just noticed that this violin in question has a clearly genuine neck scroll graft, which would be rather unusual for 1870, more likely pre 1850, perhaps even late 1700s, of course theres a small possibility it was made with a graft or the neck was broken hence the graft

... it could be original (as was done in the "English Shop" in Budapest in the early 20th century, or by Wulme-Hudson in England, or by Curtin in Ann Arbor presently, etc., etc.)... On it's own, the existence of a graft is a poor indicator of age... actually much less reliable than the lack of one.

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Even some of mine are grafted...because I decided I needed the experience. Wish that made them more valuable, but it doesn't.

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youve got to be kidding, youre asking for the next to impossible, appraising from pictures, your idea that you violin is so good it has to be a recognizable maker, not true at all, tonnes of great makers were anonomous, youve already got a lot of information out of people here, id be happy for that and go on from there.

Dear Lyndon, yes, tonnes of great makers were anonmous, thanks for correcting me, and yes I should be thankful for getting so much information here.

ps. I'm not thinking the instrument is a "so good" one (sorry for my poor english if it appears to be). And I'm absolutly not asking for appraisal from pictures, please don't misunderstand. I'm just asking about clues of the violin school and origin so that I can find the right person to get appraisal.

Perhaps Martin and Jacob have already given good advice to seek for help in Bromptons and a letter to Peter Benedek. Surely I'll try it!! Thanks again Jacob & Martin

Edited by ilovefiddle

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I'm afraid this violin may always remain a mystery ... it reminds me of two violins I have owned. One had a spurious label "Joseph Beltrami", the other had an equally spurious "Meinradus Frank" label. Both were lovely sounding violins, and both came out of Bohemian workshops.

The fact that a violin has a fantastic sound is no indication that it's a "good" violin, and it's ingenuous to think that just because a violin sounds great one ought to be able to recognize the maker! Lots of French trade violins play better than many contemporaneous named Italian violins worth 50 times the price. Anonymous violins can play superbly, and violins over £100,000 play very badly - there is only the most tenuous connection between antique value and sound, though very few people in the trade like to admit this.

Neck grafts - means nothing. I didn't refer to it because in my experience 90% of neck grafts are repairs - we have discussed this at length elsewhere.

Anyway, I wish you luck, it's a lot of fun trying to find out about an instrument like this, but be prepared for disappointment. It's not unusual for experts to dump on an instrument from a great height, and they often do it for reasons unconnected to the instrument itself. There's also so much room for judgment when it comes to valuation - what they would pay for it today (about 10% of retail), what they'd pay in an auction (30% of retail), what they'd pretend to be giving you as a trade-in on one of their own overpriced violins (70% of retail), what they'd sell it for (retail), what they think you should insure it for (110% of retail), or what they'd like you to think it's worth when you're thinking of asking them to do expensive repairs (200% of retail). These are all "valuations" - I exaggerate of course, but I think you understand my point.

Keep us posted!

ps. for those who are interested, I'm starting a new thread on Lembock in the Auction Scroll on auction prices ...

Martin Swan Violins

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Yes, I agree with Martin and Jeffery that a neck graft is not an indication of age. My Spiegel had one and it was from 1926. I'm guessing that ilovefiddle's violin is antiqued. Even violins from the mid 19th century still look pretty fresh and usually don't have that amount of wear on the back of the scroll.

ilovefiddle, are you interested in Nemessanyi? I can send you some pictures of a few.

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This is a long shot, but worth a try if you're handy.

I wouldn't be too surprised if there is a signature (or some other identifying mark) inside the top. If you have a PLASTIC dental mirror (cheap ones available at drug stores), I suggest you stick it inside to try to obtain a few more clues.

If you do find a signature inside your next problem will be to decipher it. The top has been repaired on that violin so it's possible that cleats/patches may obscure identifying marks. If you do find a signature get yourself a medical doctor with an endoscope and have him take a picture of it.

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Dear mysticpaw, thanks, and yes the sound is great and show a lot of characteristic. This makes me even more curious - the person who made this standard of violin should not be a maker without reputation at that time, how come no one recognize his work, or school of work, or even origin!? I'm so puzzled.

ps. what will you name it?

Well, with all the educated conjecture about your violin's origin, I think I'd call her " Gypsy " !!! :)

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Hi mysticpaw,

thanks for the link, I noticed it few days ago (tarisio hadn't upload a photo yet at that time), unfortunately I cannot see much similarity with mine, as said by Jeremy, it seems that my violin has nothing to do with Nemessanyi and his followers. But I still think it might be a bohemian.

Hi Flyboy,

I've tried it before, with STEEL dental mirror (I've been very careful and wrapped it with plastic), unfortunately I found nothing.....Maybe I should remove the tailpiece and look through the hole later

I think I'm wrong about antiquing, and agree with that "19th century still look pretty fresh and usually don't have that amount of wear on the back of the scroll"

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Here is a bit of information on the wood that unfortunately doesn't take us forward much....

The dendrochronological date for the front of this very nice violin (one piece front) is 1750. Quite a bit earlier than expected.

So basically, this fiddle was made..., about anytime after 1760. but... we arleady knew that.

The wood used is not typical of the one used by central European (see the careful avoidance of the B word), which tends to have been harvested further North.

Because of its very strong climatic signature, it is very representative of a large part of the Alps, including Austrian Alps, Southern German and Central/Eastern Switzerland Alps. It is probably impossible to pin point the exact provenance, and one would be a fool trying to draw conclusions as to the country of making based on my results.

The output of the test does however, show a surprisingly large number of German violins from Mittenwald at the top of the list and with very strong results, closely followed by English and French ones, with a few Italians lower down.

And although it doesn’t have the typical signature of a violin made in central Europe (from the ones in my database), that provenance for the instrument can’t of course be ruled out.

It is fairly unusual to have wood that appears to have been lying around for many years before being worked, although it is more common on some English instruments

than on other nationality instruments, again not suggesting it is English.

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The dendrochronological date for the front of this very nice violin (one piece front) is 1750. Quite a bit earlier than expected.

So basically, this fiddle was made..., about anytime after 1760. but... we arleady knew that.

That Nemessanyi guy must have been one hell of a copyist to go to such lengths. :)

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Peter, did you run a dendo analysis directly from the tarisio photos? Just curious. Speaking of which, have you looked at lot 122, the Pressenda school violin. The grain starts out narrow at the edge then gets wider and thin gets very narrow in the center. Aside from the merits of the violin (which I like a lot), does that represent any kind of normal growth pattern? Again, just curious.

Richard

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