sacconi plateu

[COB3]

+1

[Anders Buen]

This was a ground breaking paper in 1996 He was the first to introduce modal analysis to the violin making community.

There has been eariler examples of modal analysis used in violin making. E.g. Herman Meinel which did a sort of modal analysis in the 30ties during his PhD work. He claim to be a violin maker as well. But I think he preceeded with an academic career.

There are some other examples too. E.g. modal analysis was conducted to a Hutchins violin during the mid 80ties by Kenneth Marshall. The insturment was later regraduated and he conducted a new modal analysis of it that was never published. In some way chaldni patterns taken from instruments are also a sort of MA. I believe guitar makers has been using that for along time. Some violin makers too.

I think Marin Schleske got some help from H. A . Müller. He is known from the acoustics company Müller-BBM in Germany, probably the largest acoustics consultant company in Europe. Müller worked with Lothar Cremer which hepled him build up the company. Cremer was also very facinated with the violin. Later Müller "paid back" by teaching violin related acoustical issues at the Violin making school in Mittenwald, and helped Schleske with his reseach work. I think Schleske got a large EU grant to work under. And he had access to up to date techical equipment and know how, most likely through Müller.

Using modal analysis and transfer functions from acoustical spectra in analyzing violins is just to take knowledge from an established field over to a new object. The theories behind it has been extensively discussed and documented in peer rewiev papers and works related to the methodes. There is no need to do that over again to relate it to a differnt object doing the measurements on.

I think Schleskes 2002 CASJ papers show a more mature maker, user of the techincal equipment, software and theories than we can read out of the 1996 paper, although that may be regarded to be a "pioneer article" on the field, written by a violin maker.

[Anders Buen]

I should add that Jim Woodhouse is a wonderful individual, always ready and willing to help a violin maker in search of a solution with useful and practical suggestions.

He has made more than ten violins himself, and his son is a guitar maker. He worked with David Rubio, and possibly his guitar making son got his start up in that workshop. I do not know, but it would be a possibliity.

I think one of Woodhouses teachers was McIntyre, which also has been interested in, and writing scientific papers about, the violin and musical instrument sound.

[Janito]

He has made more than ten violins himself, and his son is a guitar maker. He worked with David Rubio, and possibly his guitar making son got his start up in that workshop. I do not know, but it would be a possibliity.

I think one of Woodhouses teachers was McIntyre, which also has been interested in, and writing scientific papers about, the violin and musical instrument sound.

For the record, Jim Woodhouse went to the same weekly violin-making classes I did that were run by Juliet Barker in Cambridge.

[Carl Stross]

There has been eariler examples of modal analysis used in violin making. E.g. Herman Meinel which did a sort of modal analysis in the 30ties during his PhD work. He claim to be a violin maker as well. But I think he preceeded with an academic career.

There are some other examples too. E.g. modal analysis was conducted to a Hutchins violin during the mid 80ties by Kenneth Marshall. The insturment was later regraduated and he conducted a new modal analysis of it that was never published. In some way chaldni patterns taken from instruments are also a sort of MA. I believe guitar makers has been using that for along time. Some violin makers too.

I think Marin Schleske got some help from H. A . Müller. He is known from the acoustics company Müller-BBM in Germany, proably the largest acoustics consultant company in europe. Müller worked with Lothar Cremer which hepled him build up the company. Cremer was also very facinated with the violin. Later Müller "paid back" by teaching violin related acoustical issues at the Violin making school in Mittenwald, and helped Schleske with his reseach work. I think Schleske got a large EU grant to work under. And he had access to up to date techical equipment and know how, most likely through Müller.

Using modal analysis and transfer functions from acoustical spectra in analyzing violins is just to take knowledge from an established field over to a new object. The theories behind it has been extensively discussed and documented in peer rewiev papers and works related to the methodes. There is no need to do that over again to relate it to a differnt object doing the measurements on.

I think Schleskes 2002 CASJ papers show a more mature maker, user of the techincal equipment, software and theories than we can read out of the 1996 paper, although that may be regarded to be a "pioneer article" on the field, written by a violin maker.

I AM impressed - you know your 30s...

[Michael_Molnar]

Down Boy... We're new here and their, (David and Oded) are not, like it or not they are our leaders... There are a lot of the most informed people who are directly connected with the most informed folks in the violin world.(or some thing like that??) If I could convince Oded of one thing that would be that I'm here to learn and that I respect the time, inteligence and commitment to exellence that is evident in the sharred respect among the Veterens...Our ability as Newbee's to participate in this type of Dialouge is an honor..not a right...No ones slamming you just challenging your comments....Respect

Amen.

Stay Tuned.

Mike

[Craig Tucker]

Nevermind

[Craig Tucker]

For what it's worth -

Regarding this subject matter, and other subject matter very much like this;

In response to a recent PM (who will remain anonymous) to me about this post, I have to consider that posts such as this one by me, may be construed by some people as if the post is a personal (perhaps unfair) attack and/or an attempt by me to curtail freedom of expression with regard to the personal opinions of other posters.

I will open myself up to critique about this possibility, and will take any suggestions about my manner of posting under consideration. In an attempt to keep things on an even keel I will no longer respond to this particular thread, or rebut any replies so, feel free to fire away, as I would like to know if I am indeed posting out of turn.

Thanks,

ct

(Sorry Jeffrey, if this is OT)

[Carl Stross]

In response to a recent PM (who will remain anonymous) to me about this post, I have to consider that posts such as this one by me, may be construed by some people as if the post is a personal (perhaps unfair) attack and/or an attempt by me to curtail freedom of expression with regard to the personal opinions of other posters.

I will open myself up to critique about this possibility, and will take any suggestions about my manner of posting under consideration. In an attempt to keep things on an even keel I will no longer respond to this particular thread, or rebut any replies so, feel free to fire away, as I would like to know if I am indeed posting out of turn.

Thanks,

ct

(Sorry Jeffrey, if this is OT)

The PM was mine

Reading your last post I take it you were somehow upset by some of the things I've said or the manner thereof. Please accept my most sincere apologies - I did not intend any disrespect to the older members of the forum. However, myself sometimes and quite a few other members seem to like a bit of speculation to put it mildly. Please make a few suggestions as to how would be better for us to proceed without causing any agravation towards others of different opinions.

Best rgds,

Carl

Weeding us out might be a bit extreme....

It is entirely my fault : I should have suggested moving that particular discussion on a new thread. This is a well established practice on other forums.

This way people who don't like something can simply not go there.

[Craig Tucker]

The PM was mine

It is entirely my fault : I should have suggested moving that particular discussion on a new thread. This is a well established practice on other forums.

This way people who don't like something can simply not go there.

We have no such place to go here.

In the past it was called the "Soapbox", but it didn't work out so well.

How internet miscommunications can get so far afield, I really don't know. If it was me that misunderstood your intentions re this (the above mentioned) PM, then, I apologize to you.

I suggest we simply move on then.

(thanks for not locking this.)

[Janito]

(thanks for not locking this.)

An Oprah moment - definitely not to be locked.

-----------------------

ps - didn't read anything outrageous in your earlier version of the post. You have now removed a sentence referring to name dropping; that's a shame because it is useful to be reminded of the difference between that and referencing for the sake of provenance.

[Anders Buen]

An Oprah moment - definitely not to be locked.

-----------------------

ps - didn't read anything outrageous in your earlier version of the post. You have now removed a sentence referring to name dropping; that's a shame because it is useful to be reminded of the difference between that and referencing for the sake of provenance.

I guess I am referring to a lot of names in relation to articles and research. That is part of knowing the field and any semi-scientific or scientific article should contain an overwiev of the literature on the subject usually referred to by names and the year of publication. I do not really think that is "name dropping", but rather references to persons possible to google and look up for those that may be interested in reading more litereature on the subjects. I think you have to live with the fact that I have a pretty good overwiev of the litereature on the violin acoustics subject. It can of course be increased.

However, I probably do tend to drop names in some cicumstances regarding makers and fiddlers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name-dropping I will try to reduce that, and increase the ethics on that subject from now. Less information is shared, but I can live with that.

[Janito]

However, I probably do tend to drop names in some cicumstances regarding makers and fiddlers:

You misread my post above. I don't think that your posts have been 'name dropping' inappropriately.

----------

Is this another Oprah moment?

[Anders Buen]

You misread my post above. I don't think that your posts have been 'name dropping' inappropriately.

----------

Is this another Oprah moment?

Ok, thanks for the clarification. - Appreciate that.

[Carl Stross]

I guess I am referring to a lot of names in relation to articles and research. That is part of knowing the field and any semi-scientific or scientific article should contain an overwiev of the literature on the subject usually referred to by names and the year of publication. I do not really think that is "name dropping", but rather references to persons possible to google and look up for those that may be interested in reading more litereature on the subjects. I think you have to live with the fact that I have a pretty good overwiev of the litereature on the violin acoustics subject. It can of course be increased.

However, I probably do tend to drop names in some cicumstances regarding makers and fiddlers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name-dropping I will try to reduce that, and increase the ethics on that subject from now. Less information is shared, but I can live with that.

You carry on exactly as YOU please Anders. You're always curteous and informative. Nobody's compelled to read in the end.

[David Burgess]

However, I probably do tend to drop names in some cicumstances regarding makers and fiddlers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name-dropping I will try to reduce that, and increase the ethics on that subject from now. Less information is shared, but I can live with that.

I couldn't tell where it was pointed, but it didn't occur to me that it was pointed at you, and I don't mind you mentioning references at all.

Sometimes, people will try to give background for their opinions or information, and mention people or instruments which are part of their normal life, but exotic or special to others. I suppose, from their perspective, these others could see it as "name dropping".

[Anders Buen]

I couldn't tell where it was pointed, but it didn't occur to me that it was pointed at you, and I don't mind you mentioning references at all.

Sometimes, people will try to give background for their opinions or information, and mention people or instruments which are part of their normal life, but exotic or special to others. I suppose, from their perspective, these others could see it as "name dropping".

Ok, thanks for sharing your positive view on the subject. :-) There certainly are some persons here with a very special "normal life".

[David Burgess]

Ok, thanks for sharing your positive view on the subject. :-) There certainly are some persons here with a very special "normal life".

Yeah. I'm targeted by people who have sheep-envy.

[James M. Jones]

Yeah. I'm targeted by people who have sheep-envy.

Anders and all ..I was wondering where this was going.... I think name dropping is a good thing in ceartian aspects at least as long as it is dead honest,How can we know who were talking to, if no names are dropped? And I love Knowing some of your history ,it gives weight to your words. I had tea w/Rosa Parks ,Got a hug from Joan Baez,adjusted Vasser Clemmets Mics,ect. and Damm proud of it.Not to belittle,simply to let one know who I am,,, and that's important,for in the dicource of a civil society, history provides the foundation of the future, I'm personaly stunned by the democratic method I witness here every day...short of derisive name calling and Massively OT turns .. I think it's fine to offer opinions on anything that gets said... just all remember this is not a private room...and someof us are Dogs...I think a new thread called "The Anayaliss of Analisise" would be a good branch of the current conversation, I'd start it, but I can't even spell it. Anilysis??? or can I? Anyways I've reached some sort of a Plateau,never thought this would go nine padges in a week wow.

[captainhook]

Yeah. I'm targeted by people who have sheep-envy.

I understand your nervousness. There are at least two sheep shearers on this forum, but you can probably relax. We are both too far away to be much of a threat.

Any way to get back on topic, or is it just too late?

[Craig Tucker]

Any way to get back on topic, or is it just too late?

Too late?

I don’t think so.

FWIW,

This plateau is generally how I deal with the problem of eliminating future plate deformation (when necessary) around the end blocks, while thinning the top plate sufficiently.

[Janito]

This plateau is generally how I deal with the problem of eliminating future plate deformation (when necessary) around the end blocks, while thinning the top plate sufficiently.

Do you do this at both ends and for both plates?

[captainhook]

I do, in part because it is a little simpler once you get used to it. I haven't noticed any downsides.

[Craig Tucker]

Do you do this at both ends and for both plates?

Personally - I don't usually feel that the back (of maple) needs a plateau, but yes, I will leave at least some up to a complete plateau around both the top and bottom block area, for many top plates. (for particulars see page 2, reply #33 - this thread)

[Melvin Goldsmith]

I understand your nervousness. There are at least two sheep shearers on this forum, but you can probably relax. We are both too far away to be much of a threat.

Any way to get back on topic, or is it just too late?

When it comes to Sheep shearers on this forum , there's Lyle and me (20 yrs ago) ...any others?