sacconi plateu

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

A quick look at the video on the Strad 3D web site gives the impression that they are there, the plattforms.

[apartmentluthier]

As I recall, Sacconi mentioned the critical plateu was on the upper top block to aide in keeping the neck from sagging.

[James M. Jones]

I missed that. There's no way the plateaux add 3g, unless you're comparing with a situation where you're really digging in around the blocks. And I'm sure that wouldn't be a good idea.

I might have over estimated the 3 gms... but not by much maybe 2.5 . I used a long arch that rises guickly off the purfling to give strength in compression saving the scoop for the wings. ...I have been digging close to the blocks with my channel gouge, but not right up to the block line. the thickness of the block area at the innermost edge is 4.8-9 mm and down to 3 just ajacent to the block. Three gms. does seem like a lot and is one reason I'm asking the questions.

[James M. Jones]

must go to work now ...blacksmith'in ....got something to think on now.... anymore input would be fantastic....

[Michael_Molnar]

I might have over estimated the 3 gms... but not by much maybe 2.5 . ...

Not by much, I agree. Remember, there are two plateaus.

I don't have my notes on this, but I think you are on target.

Stay Tuned.

Mike

[Don Noon]

Three gms. does seem like a lot and is one reason I'm asking the questions.

People seem to be talking about this mass and stiffness like it's someplace that really mattered a lot. Yes, it's considerable if you're talking about a free plate, and yes the mass and stiffness will have some fairly significant effects on the tap tones... but that all gets watered down tremendously when you glue the plates to the blocks and ribs (which is one reason I don't think too much of tap tones).

How much difference does 3 grams make in a chinrest? It's kinda the same thing.

[Fjodor]

On the front I'm working right now i left the plateau. This top became quite light (58 g without bass bar) so I didn't feel it needed to make be any lighter. I have no idea how it might affect the sound.

[Craig Tucker]

Here is an area where there are no hard and fast agreed upon rules, apparently.

So, pretty much each maker can go with his or her intuition/experience.

Unless someone with some authority and a great deal of experience speaks up, and convinces me other wise, then I'll have to go with my own observations, building experience, and theories about why such a thing might be employed.

I have thinned my plates both ways clear up to and around - hugging the top and bottom block; and with a full straight line plateau (plateau is a good way to speak of these, I believe, as, when looking at the plate from the inside, that's exactly what they appear to be - part of the gluing surface - a plateau or platform.)

In my opinion, their main function (the Sacconi plateau, that is) would be to add strength or stability to the plate, and for me, the plate that needs stability from eventual deformation the most, is the top plate. The area where it might need to be slightly thicker may be around where the sound post sits (which, by the way, I don't do) and right by the top and bottom blocks. For what it's worth, I also pay particular attention to the area where the plate meets the area adjoining the CC's. where I believe too thin = weakness or squirliness tonally.

Please remember this is just me. And I'm just saying what I do, not trying to sell anyone.

The back - by virtue of the inherent strength of the wood, and the relative stresses under full string pressure - do not need the extended plateau so much, unless the wood isn't up to the pretty stiff domestic Bigleaf I commonly use - so I occasionally do use an extended platform there too. Even though the soundpost push is there, acting on the back also, I don't believe that thickening the plate there helps any.

A. What I did at first.

B. what I tried (Yes, after pondering Sacconi and others...)

C. What I have settled on for now.

I also think that whatever system you decide on, how you approach the gluing platform (meaning; how abruptly) has a great bearing on plate response.

[NewNewbie]

Aha. They add stiffness/strength to those parts plus they mark the borders for the inside scoop. In my system for arching the inside, they form the rectangle that make up the long arch.

Inside of the belly roughed out at Ken's violin making Blog.

Are we seeing just another 'working method' clue left behind for the inside arching first approach, that only makes sense since violins perform well with and without the Sacconi Platform.

[Craig Tucker]

Are we seeing just another 'working method' clue left behind for the inside arching first approach, that only makes sense since violins perform well with and without the Sacconi Platform.

Yes, I would think so.

It is a good realization that a single method is neither correct nor is it incorrect if it doesn't follow some other method out there.

I take it that this is an "inside first" method for establishing the parameters of the inside arch?

[Chad Sobodash]

What's the advantage of taking out the inside arch before form cutting?

The last instrument I built for a close friend (some time ago, before school broke me like a prison wife), I left the top platform only because I've recently been of the mind that it prevents neck sagging. However, I carefully scraped a little to either side where the platform meets the top block, just in case it hampered upper-register vibrations or harmonics. I didn't notice anything.

I believe the bottom of the belly is much too sensitive to warrant the platform, however.

[James M. Jones]

As usual no quick fix , Don I agree that in and of it's self 3 gms is not a lot and that after glueing the effect is mostly null I'm there withTap tones as well It's just the feeling of syneregy and how important all the componants working together as the whole. thanks all for the input at least now I can understand the fog if not clear it out. FWIW CT I used the #3 option for these last two builds ,,just a little softer edge than previously. more and more about less and less....thanks all.

[James M. Jones]

What's the advantage of taking out the inside arch before form cutting? I'm not sure there is , I have however heard .or rather read of a theory of designing the arch from the inside -out might have been used by early cremonesse. kinda makes sence as volume of the body has much to do with tone and amplitude. but from a building standpoint ...I just can't wrap my head around carving the inside first.I.E. from glued wedges to flat and hollow.design and planning yes but hollowing ...I'd have to see it done.

[captainhook]

My interpretation of Cremonese arching, from just pictures and drawings, is that there is very little excess wood in those areas anyway. This idea doesn't apply if you are not doing that type of arching.

[Melvin Goldsmith]

My interpretation of Cremonese arching, from just pictures and drawings, is that there is very little excess wood in those areas anyway. This idea doesn't apply if you are not doing that type of arching.

..............

Hi Lyle,

You are correct.

It might be different on a Maggini design.

[James M. Jones]

..............

Hi Lyle,

You are correct.

It might be different on a Maggini design.

I take it a maggini arching risses much quicker? I'm still very much a student .All I have are a few Strad posters the DGU Cessole the Messia the Millano a Lupot and ....a Maggini viola ..gonna check it out right now...thanks guys.Capt. Melving

[Bernie R]

yes, the not hollowing out of the plates ...Is there another plateau I am unaware of?

Yes, Oh Jonesviolin, there is another plateau, a plateau of which you and most ordinary mortals are quite unaware, this plateau can be reached only through years of practice and self-denial or really good weed.

[JimMurphy]

I wonder which of the Strad regrads originally had the plateau(s).

To plateau, or not to plateau, that is the question ...

Jim

[Melvin Goldsmith]

I take it a maggini arching risses much quicker? I'm still very much a student .All I have are a few Strad posters the DGU Cessole the Messia the Millano a Lupot and ....a Maggini viola ..gonna check it out right now...thanks guys.Capt. Melving

A very good student too!..Yes a Maggini arch would tend to rise faster...Taking a look at recent pics posted here and on Tarisio of the lady Blunt Strad near the neck under the board can be useful...The shot below is another Strad..the arch is not really taking off until it clears the block

[James M. Jones]

My interpretation of Cremonese arching, from just pictures and drawings, is that there is very little excess wood in those areas anyway. This idea doesn't apply if you are not doing that type of arching.

wow I've been looking at the poster for years I see what you mean! thanks again.

[James M. Jones]

Yes, Oh Jonesviolin, there is another plateau, a plateau of which you and most ordinary mortals are quite unaware, this plateau can be reached only through years of practice and self-denial or really good weed.

I have been to the mountian....literaly...and back again....

Melving THANK YOU.. I try my best without a constant teacher it's realy hard to know even what's good and what's not. so I can't over emphasize how much your input is appriecated .this goes out to all the MN crowd thanks bunches. Much love for you all..... I realy get a kick out of the international aspect of the forum as well

[Addie]

Yes a Maggini arch would tend to rise faster...Taking a look at recent pics posted here and on Tarisio of the lady Blunt Strad near the neck under the board can be useful...The shot below is another Strad..the arch is not really taking off until it clears the block

I thought the early Amatis rose quickly, but no, not really, looking at pictures. Thanks Mr. Jones, and Melvin, for pointing that out!

[Melvin Goldsmith]

Glad to be of some assistance...violin makers must go to the mountain and back every day...Part of the job description I think!

[James M. Jones]

Glad to be of some assistance...violin makers must go to the mountain and back every day...Part of the job description I think!

[Oded Kishony]

I believe the bottom of the belly is much too sensitive to warrant the platform, however.

I agree with you Chad. A few years ago I worked with Wendy Moes trying to find a way to control wolf notes via the end button. It was then that I concluded that this region is very sensitive to small changes. Much more so than swapping a chin rest would suggest.

Oded