jmannsback Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Which modern marking/identification scheme is best to get the original instrument back to its original owner after some unscrupulous person pulls off the old switcheroo? Thanks, Jim The best 'modern marking/identification scheme' is someone who is able to determine which 'original original instruments' are the 'original' instruments owned by Frau Sator. Now I must ask two questions: 1. What is a 'proper title' and how can such a thing be 'assigned' to any old violin? 2. Where are the serial numbers found in or on the body of, say, a GDG that doesn't have a label, or a fake/facsimile label, or never had a label in the first place? Jmann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James M. Jones Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 The best 'modern marking/identification scheme' is someone who is able to determine which 'original original instruments' are the 'original' instruments owned by Frau Sator. Now I must ask two questions: 1. What is a 'proper title' and how can such a thing be 'assigned' to any old violin? 2. Where are the serial numbers found in or on the body of, say, a GDG that doesn't have a label, or a fake/facsimile label, or never had a label in the first place? Jmann I would think the "serial number" would essentialy be high rez imadages. any one could pick out the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimMurphy Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 The best 'modern marking/identification scheme' is someone who is able to determine which 'original original instruments' are the 'original' instruments owned by Frau Sator. Now I must ask two questions: 1. What is a 'proper title' and how can such a thing be 'assigned' to any old violin? 2. Where are the serial numbers found in or on the body of, say, a GDG that doesn't have a label, or a fake/facsimile label, or never had a label in the first place? Yeah, it's #2 I was getting at. I expect many Owners may not even be able to identify their own instruments. It would seem the unscrupulous have the upperhand unless maybe some 'system of markings' is used for identification purposes. Perhaps the Label would be just one 'known element' of the marking scheme. I've heard talk of DNA being used to mark instruments as well. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyboy Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 I suppose if Ms. Sator obtained her photographs originally from Machold all bets would be off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmannsback Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Does anyone actually know which instruments (specific makers and dates with documentation in the form of photographs) Frau Sator actually handed over to Machold? If anyone is in possession of such information, why not post it in this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James M. Jones Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 On the topic of Instrument ID ,what about the inplant(yes.. silicon) tech. I could "see" various ways of seceretly placing and recording the info rather non invasivly. I understand It could be Quite a deal to instal one on a Strad or ECT. but... is any one familar with these things? or willing to offer opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 It seems like that has come and gone already. And last time I looked into it, there were companies offering to clone ID chips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James M. Jones Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 It seems like that has come and gone. And last time I looked into it, there were companies offering to clone ID chips. Figures... just try to stay ones step ahead of the wolf pack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 It would seem the unscrupulous have the upperhand unless maybe some 'system of markings' is used for identification purposes. Sounds like the bad old days, when the "iron curtain" was just down the road and people would come around and ask me to retouch a fake Romanian Customs stamp onto their fiddle. None of the above will ever work. The trade is based on trust and always will be. That is why it is so important to be honest and so reprehensible when one is a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Noon Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 So I guess us makers will have to sign in blood... for later DNA verification. Shades of the Red Violin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimMurphy Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 None of the above will ever work. The trade is based on trust and always will be. That is why it is so important to be honest and so reprehensible when one is a liar. To catch a Liar in a high-end switcheroo scenario may only be possible by means of additional 'secret' identification markings. The switched 'copy' won't have these markings. The downside is the original needs to be found to confirm it has the markings or the Liar 'walks'. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 So I guess us makers will have to sign in blood... for later DNA verification. Somebody will come up with a way to transfer it to another fiddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Somebody will come up with a way to transfer it to another fiddle. Look out for "Sradivari Blood" in the next "Cremona Tools" catalogue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Look out for "Sradivari Blood" in the next "Cremona Tools" catalogue. A friend of mine found an odd feature inside a Strad, which we've jokingly been calling an Omobono booger. Who knows? I hope he saved it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANFIO Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 In Italian there is a famous saying that runs "fatta la legge, trovato l'inganno"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmannsback Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 Jacob Saunders has written: "Sounds like the bad old days, when the "iron curtain" was just down the road and people would come around and ask me to retouch a fake Romanian Customs stamp onto their fiddle." ------------------------------- Huh? As far as I know, Romanian Customs embosses their (official) seal into a glob of hot red/orange wax poured on a square card of thick paper with two holes punched in it, which card is attached (by means of a short string passed through the holes in the card and knotted) which string was already passed through one set of holes in the unmounted pegbox. A document of appraisal (with a good quality photograph of the unmounted front at the least) must also be submitted before exportation. Even though the 'iron curtain' may have fallen the red tape of communisim still has a good hold in many places. Fess up, Jacob! You're Machold's right hand man, aren't you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Noon Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 In Italian there is a famous saying that runs "fatta la legge, trovato l'inganno"... I don't know Italian, but it looks like: "people with fat legs shouldn't wear lingerie" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James M. Jones Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 I don't know Italian, but it looks like: "people with fat legs shouldn't wear lingerie" Google translate .."made the law .find the loophole." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scordatura Posted April 21, 2011 Report Share Posted April 21, 2011 I don't know Italian, but it looks like: "people with fat legs shouldn't wear lingerie" Reminds me of the lyric; "I don't care what I've been told but a big leg woman ain't got no soul". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 "people with fat legs shouldn't wear lingerie" I'm secretly with you on that one, but I'll publicly defend their right to be offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan_Coggins Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 "people with fat legs shouldn't wear lingerie" ...or speedos, isn't that right David? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 ...or speedos, isn't that right David? I was thinkin' it might be the same thing, but then I started thinking about how there were implications of gender, and how that might affect the outcome. Fat guy in lingerie, fat woman in a speedo... now you're getting me all confused, Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Jacob Saunders has written: "Sounds like the bad old days, when the "iron curtain" was just down the road and people would come around and ask me to retouch a fake Romanian Customs stamp onto their fiddle." ------------------------------- Huh? As far as I know, Romanian Customs embosses their (official) seal into a glob of hot red/orange wax poured on a square card of thick paper with two holes punched in it, which card is attached (by means of a short string passed through the holes in the card and knotted) which string was already passed through one set of holes in the unmounted pegbox. A document of appraisal (with a good quality photograph of the unmounted front at the least) must also be submitted before exportation. Even though the 'iron curtain' may have fallen the red tape of communisim still has a good hold in many places. Fess up, Jacob! You're Machold's right hand man, aren't you! You are quite right. There was however a slightly less burocratic way round in the 80's which relied upon 1. useing the right border crossing & 2. the customs official "likeing you". If a musician had a concert gig in "the West", he could take his own (the best he could find) violin. The customs would apply their rubber stamp on the back, to make sure that he brougt the same violin back. Once in the west, the violin would be converted into as many deutsch marks as possible, and a cheap and nasty violin bought or scrounged. This violin had to be just good enough to be able to play the first few bars of "Zigeunerweisen" incase neccesary, and only needed something that looked like a Romanian rubber stamp painted on the back. You have caught me red-handed of course. Sorry, I'm Dietmars stooge. I have met him twice since I left in 1985; once when a Viennese professor took a Cappa on approval to see "how the tone carried in the Musikverein" and tried to sell it to Dietmar for a profit the very next day and a second time when a loss adjuster required a 3rd opinion re. an insurance claim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted April 22, 2011 Report Share Posted April 22, 2011 Jacob Saunders has written: "Sounds like the bad old days, when the "iron curtain" was just down the road and people would come around and ask me to retouch a fake Romanian Customs stamp onto their fiddle." ------------------------------- Fess up, Jacob! You're Machold's right hand man, aren't you! PS. Sorry a third time when Rogers Guarneri was in the Dorotheum, I forgot that one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atomino Posted April 23, 2011 Report Share Posted April 23, 2011 Google translate .."made the law .find the loophole." Correct translation is "made the law, found the loophole". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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