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sugar seal


jezzupe

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from google. fructose is the most water soluble of all the sugars. white table sugar is a mixture of fructose and glucose. Corn syrup is mostly glucose. Honey contains significant amounts of fructose.

so maybe it would be best to use corn syrup as far as being more water resistant but you would have to cook the water out of it.

But like I said earlier even shellac is not entirely water proof and yet people still use it so maybe the water resistance issue is not so important?

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The "wet" sugars that need to be cooked to remove any trace liquids: honey, maple syrup,molasses, if you cook them only partially and only remove some "fluid" then let them cool, they will be "stiffer" or drier than before you cook them, but still be soft. This is a very bizarre property of sugar that if you cook it only partially, and then add some boiling water{as if making the base solution} then apply it too wood when all the water that you added is evaporated out, the sugar will return to what ever state it was in at room temp.

I would be very interested to hear from chemists about this "bizarre property of sugar." What is happening chemically or physically?

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I cooked up some white sugar.

Without water.

Got some brown color after it bubbled up.

Added boiling water to stop the process.

It dries stickey.

The cooking process boils out the attached water.

Then the sugar is chemically altered in the caramelization process.

The result is a mix of smaller and larger molecules, not just sugar.

More experiments will be useful.

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I cooked up some white sugar.

Without water.

Got some brown color after it bubbled up.

Added boiling water to stop the process.

It dries stickey.

The cooking process boils out the attached water.

Then the sugar is chemically altered in the caramelization process.

The result is a mix of smaller and larger molecules, not just sugar.

More experiments will be useful.

Wondering how to eliminate the stickey-ness, if that would even be desirable?

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It's interesting people are having problems with this. When I cooked down the honey, I did so with absolute lack of any procedure. After the sample dried for an hour or so, it wasn't sticky unless I paused to press my finger tips firmly into into the surface for about 5 seconds or so, and even then, it was only slightly sticky from the warmth of my fingers. Just now I took the rib stock sample made on March 9, and it isn't even slightly sticky even when pressing my thumb hard into the seal coat for 2 minutes.

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I cooked up some white sugar.

Without water.

Got some brown color after it bubbled up.

Added boiling water to stop the process.

It dries stickey.

The cooking process boils out the attached water.

Then the sugar is chemically altered in the caramelizing process.

The result is a mix of smaller and larger molecules, not just sugar.

More experiments will be useful.

Some suggestions, I have a feeling your ratio is off, you may have too much sugar. The viscosity of the final product should be allowed to cool down before use so as to observe its viscosity. It should not be thick, it should be quite watery...

I'm sorry I have not come up with exact ratio measurements, I will find a good usable ratio for those who are interested and into that sort of thing, you know, measuring. Personally I don't really measure any thing, I always consider measuring a symptom of someone who does not know what they are doing :lol:

Also, you should hit it with a hair dryer, if after pulling the dryer away and allowing the wood surface to cool or about 30 sec. If it is not dry to the touch at that point, there is most likely a ratio problem.

Also, on your sticky sample, if the dryer does not help, take a rag, dip it in some water, and evenly scrub and then wipe the board down with the wet rag, hit with dryer, if that does not help....frankly I'm not sure

I believe the science is "universal" so the only thing I can think of is that you have too much sugar{the solution should be watery in viscosity} or you live in a super humid area that is so damp that the oxygen cross link is over ridden by the moisture content.

This would not effect the sealer after coated, sugar seal can live in damp areas, but it must be coated WHEN DRY....

As I said, it can trap water, heat aids in its evaporation. It can take a VERY long time to dry if warm air is not used after application..IF you solution is thick, the shell will be too thick and dramatically slow the rate of evaporation, thus giving the surface a sticky feel...sweaty hands can give a sticky feel too, so wash your hands and make sure they are dry.

The density of the wood itself and its ability to absorb water will effect dry times as well, this will vary piece to piece

Good luck, post some pics

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Jezzupe

so with refined white granular sugar you could just dissolve it in water and not have to cook it right? and when the water evaporates it will dry hard?

Yes, I usually heat the sugar and water in a pan for a bit, it helps to melt the crystal faster. This will result in a "clear" sealer that will mimick shellac or linseed oil type seal.But the chatonoyance should be better and the the seal more better and way thinner.

To me this is comming down to "just how little sugar to water can we use and still get a barrier coat and the grain pop".

---------

Some statements about this entire thing

1. I have no formal training

2. I am not a chemist

3. I am not claiming that "this is it", only that it could be, just like any other speculations from the past.

4. I respect everyone here and their opinions

5. I do not have all the answers related to "sugar seal"

6. I DO have years of experience using a sugar based sealer on other applications.

7. I posted this "post" because I admire and respect folks here and due to the ease and safety of making this product, I would like others to mess around with it and see if they see what I do.

8. Regardless if it is significant related to Cremona varnish systems, it is a very viable ground IF you are not concerned about what may or may not happen 100 years from now to the violins finish

9. I am the "Grand poobah" {the know it all who has no proven track record in the real world} I am well aware of this, I do not have the reputation nor the sophistication to "prove" anything related to this "system" other than posting pics. Due to this fact, it is why I openly shared this idea in the hopes that those with some level of reputation and sophistication may take the time to look at it with the hope that it may have some significance.

I appreciate everyone who has taken the time to test some samples, I feel that the more people that test it out, the more we can learn about it, and well becasue staright sugar water has no historical track record one way or another, I feel we should work the idea to see where it goes.

WARNING:.......RELATED TO SUGAR TASTING SWEET......

WHITE SUGAR MAY BE SWEET...

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES BE CURIOUS AS I WAS TO WHAT THE BURNED SUGAR SOLUTION TASTE LIKE....

I sipped some off the spoon, expecting some sweet taste, nothing, hmmm?, sipped at little more....THEN WHAMMO......the most nasty taste I have ever tasted hit my mouth yeeeeukkk!!!....it was strange because at first I tasted nothing, it took a bit to soak in, but once I did.....blahhhhh!!!...And it took a long time for the taste to go away, after trying to wash it out, eating candy helped.

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Repost for ideas? Solvent referrs to the original posts where shellac was being compared.

If you are asking about the sugar seal, about 2 tablespoons of sugar to about 1/3 cup of water. Here again, the window ratio can be pretty open, I like it thinnish and usually apply/dry 3 coats. But it could be done differently, basically one just needs a ratio that will dry to the touch and then why dry makes the wood look good, this "shine" or presence of a "visual" seal generally implies that the wood has absorbed enough sugar and that the sugar will act as a barrier and prevent contact of either lac resin, linseed oil or protein from touching the wood raw.

Sealers that would go ontop of the sugar seal...Dewax shellac,conifer linseed varnish, or hide glue...should be applied in the ratio mix that would be used as normal if the sugar was not used.

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<<Also, on your sticky sample, if the dryer does not help,

take a rag, dip it in some water, and evenly scrub and then

wipe the board down with the wet rag, hit with dryer,

if that does not help....frankly I'm not sure>>

A quick wipe with a damp tissue removed the sticky.

I tried the microwave yesterday. That was no help.

But a quick wipe with a damp tissue removed all the

sticky feel. So somehow I got the caramel solution too thick.

The two woods here are live oak and an old popsicle stick (Ice Treat)

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hey Jezzupe I was just wondering about your floor finishing. What kind of solution do you use? regular refined sugar in water? Proportions? How many coatings? I can't imagine using a hair dryer to dry a floor so you have to wait a long time for it to dry before putting anything else on it?

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hey Jezzupe I was just wondering about your floor finishing. What kind of solution do you use? regular refined sugar in water? Proportions? How many coatings? I can't imagine using a hair dryer to dry a floor so you have to wait a long time for it to dry before putting anything else on it?

What I will say about that is this; The solution is derived from refined sugar, I don't want to discuss formula if you don't mind.

Floors generally use 4 coats on a stain job...1 stain, 1 sealer 2 top coats.

A wood floor is not constructed with hide glue, therefore it does not need a hair dryer

The hair dryer, related to violins, is to dry the surface water off so it does not comprimise the glue joints

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I understand about propietary formulas. Was just wondering about how the floor application compares to the violin application.

oops speaking of formulas... I just had a brilliant idea! I think I'll backspace that part out until I get a chance to try it..

a way to get rock hard sugar with cooked in color and wouldn't have to be concerned about drying it because of glue joints... sweet!

oh and it wouldn't be tacky either

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I believe Newnewbie ponders the fact that if you can use a wet rag to wipe out the sticky caramel than it means that the water solubility will become an issue very quickly with this sealer.

Do you have this expression in English, "weighing the for and the against"?

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If a wet rag can solve the problem, then what does that tell you about water issues??? :mellow:

apperently you have not read my very complete and well written posts, they are long, but they do explain and cover most of the things you are concerned about.

Do you:

have some wood

have some sugar or honey

have some water?

I would feel much better about going into details with you AFTER you have done some test's

I will say this one more time

sugar water shell acts one way...when it is alone or the only coating on the wood

AFTER it has been coated with either shellac or conifer varnish it acts another way

it is seemingly yours and others assumption that after it has been coated and years have gone by and all these top layers are worn off that a sweaty chin will liqufy it and its all gonna fall off...it does'nt seem to work that way

please, I have shared this so folks may test it out, I hope you will. Find flaws with it with samples, theorectical wonderment is good and all, but I would rather discuss what your actual results on real tests are vrs. discussing how you imagine it works.

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Do you:

have some wood

have some sugar or honey

have some water?

..... I have shared this so folks may test it out, I hope you will. Find flaws with it with samples, theorectical wonderment is good and all, but I would rather discuss what your actual results on real tests are vrs. discussing how you imagine it works.

Well, I'm sure there are others of us out there trying it, but not posting much. It seemed like a crazy idea, but I have tried it.

post-24063-0-77772900-1300748674_thumb.jpg

The bottom piece is maple, a piece of cello rib stock, not otherwise treated. I did swipe a scraper across it a couple times to smooth it a bit, but didn't go too far. After all, this is a crazy idea. And yet some of the other posted photos looked nice, so....

Anyway, the cello ribstock has 'sugar water' on the right 2/3 side, 'honey water' on the left 1/3, divided by a pencil mark. The 'sugar water' side also is divided, with the right most side have two coats, the left just one.

Above is a piece of spruce cut-off left, maple cut-off right. Again no other treatment besides a little rudimentary scraper work.

I think it's interesting. Will go further with shellac, etc.

I also think calling it 'sugar water' may be misleading. After you cook the stuff, it's sure not something I'd want to use in my coffee. Is it still sugar? Dunno.

And, I don't think I cooked the honey long enough. Next time I'll let it go longer. On the other hand, it may be because it's not from Cremona, but rather from Emmett, Idaho.

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If you 'weigh down' the violin with a hygroscopic material, as Summer and high humidity approaches, things will only get worse.

So while you hope to be out of town in 100 years, what will you be doing this summer?

Do you live in a Winnebago?

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I asked for the weight of the sample ribs.

Before and after. Bill's coating from the pictures looked very thick to me, but it's hard to tell from a picture, so I asked for the weight.

No weight given. Comparing this sample to another rib sample would have shown the weight gain.

The surface area covered by the sample divided into the surface area of a violin should give a rough idea of the weight gain in a dry state.

Then in Summer time you can re-weigh your sample, compare it to an untreated rib sample, to see the weight gain.

Dry Density of Sucrose 1.587 g/cm3, solid

What do you think is the weight of the sucrose when humidity rises?

Sucrose. Sucrose has the greatest solubility of the disaccharid sugars.

"Browne in his "Handbook of Sugar Analysis" states that, at 20°C, 204 grams are soluble in 100 cc. of water. Thus at room temperature about 2 grams of sucrose are soluble in 1 cc. of water." from above link

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***I think 'most' would agree, that a good violin coating should not add excess undue weight.***

In spite of the "Cold Fusion", or any other "reasoning" given, you will see a weight gain. Why?

Because the polarity of the sugar has not changed, even though you have cooked it, and water being a polar solvent will have it's way.

The film you cover it with will only slow-down the penetration of the water molecules.

When you have completed your experiments, 'sink' your sample(s), with various stages of finish on them, into the bowl of water.

One section with Sugar coat only, then sugar coat and ground varnish, and finally sugar coat, ground varnish and top varnish.

Observe.

If someone really rich bought a Stradivari violin and washed it out to sea, we would all cry 'Foul!', but misfortune has done it for us instead, and thanks to the lack of hygroscopic coatings, and Hans Weisshaar we all can still enjoy the 'Red Diamond' violin still.

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This whole thread has been bereft of any science, little alone pseudo-science. Wild speculation that only favours the pros, and the attempts to have it both ways, leads no one anywhere.

This can only be because doing any real science will blow this whole thing out of the water, or is that not what all this has been about, blowing it "out of the water" to keep it dry. We need to go beyond nice looking pictures.

All points to 'Stradivari Fever', and anyone thinking of following this route would be wise to take a good scientific look at the problem, rather than thinking that by coming into mere contact with wood, the sugar is magically transformed into a non-polar molecule.

====================================================================================================================

As to the value of using this for refractive index purposes, I have this link that might help.

Table 3.2 Density and refractive indexes of sucrose

====================================================================================================================

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