NewNewbie Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 LOL ROFL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezzupe Posted March 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 LOL ROFL See, it can be done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezzupe Posted March 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 It's been about 40 minutes since I applied it to the rib stock. It's more or less dry now, if I press my thumb into it there is a slight tack yet. I wouldn't hesitate to put oil varnish directly on top of this without the glue. Who needs protein if the wood is already effectively sealed against oil by the honey solution? Agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNewbie Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 I'm not trying to recreate the Cremonese ground, just something that works. That's fine, you don't have to follow the Cremonese ground rules, it's not like the Violin Police are going to come and arrest you in the middle of the night. The question for me is what do you mean by just "something that works"? Do you mean something that is the opposite of something that does not work? Are you only interested in appearance only? Then it works on that level, as we can all see. The point is why does it work, appearance wise? Then make it work in other areas, if they are so desired. Was the Red Diamond violin ground varnish exposed to water, or was the ground varnish missing too, leaving only the underlying seal? Most research indicates the Cremonese ground was actually a short oil varnish applied over top of the initial wood sealer. The ground varnish would probably hold up to water for some time. How long will your sugar coat hold up to water? The German glue ground violins, along with others, are telling us something about water soluble grounds. Yes the more coatings between the sugar and the outside world, the more time you buy, but sooner or later water will reach a sugar ground, and sugar being what it is will have it's high solubility kick in, and then what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNewbie Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 See, it can be done What? Ruining a violin? Anyone need work repairing a violin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Yacey Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Well, I'm turning in. I'll post back after I proceed with the oil varnish tomorrow. Goodnight all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezzupe Posted March 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 That's fine, you don't have to follow the Cremonese ground rules, it's not like the Violin Police are going to come and arrest you in the middle of the night. The question for me is what do you mean by just "something that works"? Do you mean something that is the opposite of something that does not work? Are you only interested in appearance only? Then it works on that level, as we can all see. The point is why does it work, appearance wise? Then make it work in other areas, if they are so desired. How long will your sugar coat hold up to water? The German glue ground violins, along with others, are telling us something about water soluble grounds. Yes the more coatings between the sugar and the outside world, the more time you buy, but sooner or later water will reach a sugar ground, and sugar being what it is will have it's high solubility kick in, and then what? Then, and only then, do the violin police come for you, generally 125 years after your dead. Most people play with rest's these days anyhow, most of the wear we see on the masters is from pre rest days anyhow. I would bank on my varnish sytems lasting easily 100 years if proper stewardship was in place. Yes the key is how much varnish between the surface and the sugar.But answer me this riddle.... I was at a cafe in 1991, sipping a well sugared half caf decaf with half and half when much to my chagrin I spilled it all over my white polo sweater. Being out for the day, I just had to wear it, getting home late, I tossed it in the hamper and forgot about it until next weeks wash. After washing it, I just grabbed it out with the other shirts, didn't really look at it and tossed it in the dryer. After getting it out to fold, I noticed that the stain was still there, faded some, but still there, So I threw it back in the hamper and decided I would wash it again next load. 20 years later, after approx. 200 washes and being demoted to a work sweater with other stains the stain outline is still there. How many more times will I have to wash it to get the sugar stain out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNewbie Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Then, and only then, do the violin police come for you, generally 125 years after your dead. Most people play with rest's these days anyhow, most of the wear we see on the masters is from pre rest days anyhow. I would bank on my varnish sytems lasting easily 100 years if proper stewardship was in place. Yes the key is how much varnish between the surface and the sugar. Yes if you keep the violin away from water, then it should last! Of course one should avoid flash floods when in California, if proper stewardship is to be in place. But answer me this riddle.... I was at a cafe in 1991, sipping a well sugared half caf decaf with half and half when much to my chagrin I spilled it all over my white polo sweater. Being out for the day, I just had to wear it, getting home late, I tossed it in the hamper and forgot about it until next weeks wash. After washing it, I just grabbed it out with the other shirts, didn't really look at it and tossed it in the dryer. After getting it out to fold, I noticed that the stain was still there, faded some, but still there, So I threw it back in the hamper and decided I would wash it again next load. 20 years later, after approx. 200 washes and being demoted to a work sweater with other stains the stain outline is still there. How many more times will I have to wash it to get the sugar stain out? What? Do you want me to do your washing for you now! I don't even like doing my own!!!! Are you saying that your "sugar stain" is still present after 200 washes! Or are you saying that your "stain", "minus the sugar" is still present. Do me a favor and taste your sweater for me. No matter how many times you do something wrong, is it still not wrong? "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein, (attributed) US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)" - Quote Link Just razzin' you! Couldn't resist that one. Sorry! ---------------------------------------------------------------- Take any sugar on fabric and let the fabric soak in water, until the sugar dissolves into the water. Then Rinse with clean water. In a hurry, then add a little white vinegar. Vinegar as Stain Remover If you do not remove the sugar solution from the fabric by soaking in water, then the sticky sugar will attract dirt and other staining substances. Now removing "stains", that had a "sugar" vehicle that deposited them, is tougher, but that's a whole other story isn't it. It depends on what stain was in the sugar solution vehicle as to how to treat it. Since you have heated up your stain without the sugar, I'm assuming you dried it 200 times, you have 'set' your stain, and so drastic measures may be now needed. "How can I remove a large Bundaberg rum and Coke stain from my cream carpet? This is a high-sugar stain. You need an ultraviolet light or sunlight to remove it. You can hire an ultraviolet light from chemists or hardware stores. Aim the light onto the stain until it leaches the colour out and then use a cloth dampened with warm water and sponge over the stain to remove it. You can use an ultraviolet light to remove any vegetable dye stains. " - Quote Link Yes I know it's not the same beverage, but try the U.V. light and see if there is any change. Since the stain is from 1991, it may take a long time to see any change. ------------------------------------------------------------------- My point is that "sugar" and what people call a "sugar stain" are not the same thing, and it's the stain part left behind, which came with the sugary liquid, that causes the trouble. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Now I hope you don't want me to now do your windows! BTW vinegar works well on windows too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNewbie Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 U.V. light colors given by Sacconi page 191, under "Colours Of Fluorescence", lists candied sugar - pale cobalt blue. Not sure what wavelength he is using. ------------------------------------- Found this: Wood's Lamp "(at a wavelength of approximately 365 nanometers)" ------------------------------------- "Second, when viewed under ultraviolet illumination of ~370 nanometer wavelength, classical varnishes (as a rule) reveal a unique opaque yellowish-white fluorescent layer underneath the colored varnish. - VSA Papers Summer 2005 Vol. 1, No. 1, Koen Padding I'm not sure if 5 nm difference is enough to bring about a color change???? This could also be the ground varnish, and not the ground, but I thought I would put this in for any so inclined to pursue this. ------------------------------------- Does anyone know what wavelength they used? www.stradivarivarnish.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertdo Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 It's been about 40 minutes since I applied it to the rib stock. It's more or less dry now, if I press my thumb into it there is a slight tack yet. I wouldn't hesitate to put oil varnish directly on top of this without the glue. Who needs protein if the wood is already effectively sealed against oil by the honey solution? The funny thing about this is that I remember a thread last year about Vernice bianca and someone asking if 1 spoon of honey was a tea spoon or a table spoon. And to cut long story short the conclusion was that finally the honey was not necessary and even not welcome beause of its hygroscopic nature. It would be funny to find out that actually it's gum arabic and albumin that were unnecessary! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian McLinden Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 . . . It would be funny to find out that actually it's gum arabic and albumin that were unnecessary! It'd be even funnier if both carbohydrates were necessary! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezzupe Posted March 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 The funny thing about this is that I remember a thread last year about Vernice bianca and someone asking if 1 spoon of honey was a tea spoon or a table spoon. And to cut long story short the conclusion was that finally the honey was not necessary and even not welcome beause of its hygroscopic nature. It would be funny to find out that actually it's gum arabic and albumin that were unnecessary! Bill instinctively did the right thing, sugars like honey can be used, but they need to be turned to "glass" first.Any sugar that remains "hard" at room temp is ok, naturally soft sugars like maple syrup,honey, molasses can only be used after they have been converted to a glass state with heat. Regular honey alone would be too soft as a base for coating , however once "burned" it returns to its "hard" state when cool, so ten it works fine, after being converted to a hard state, when mixed with water, when dry it will dry hard. This is very important for the next coat going down. Soft sugar will let things stick to it, however the base will be soft and allow for "twisting" the top coats off and or make a weak ground. To promote the best adhesion, I would still recommend a thin coat of wax free shellac before oil coats, but based on my tests oil finishes stick very well. Of course I have not tested every oil finish on top of it, but I do know shellac sticks very well and that all finishes stick to shellac. But I don't think adhesion should be a problem. there are several advantages to sugar, the nature of its monolithic shell is quite impressive. On my sample board, both the glue seal and shellac seal had "bleed through" of the colored oil varnish AFTER I had sanded the board. In some more open pore areas little pin hole sized holes weep colored finish that had GOT THROUGH the sealers {2 coats of sealer} shealc x2 and glue/shellac. Not only was the sugar harder to remove, but where it was sealing the board, NO weeping was present I encourage others to test samples Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezzupe Posted March 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 New newb....you missed a spot how much does the devil pay you to be his advocate? Well I appreciate your inormative google action, yet I would encourage you to check it out. It is very easy to do test samples. But if you decide not to because you feel the system holds no merit,I understand. You will still most likely be able to observe others test's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 U.V. light colors given by Sacconi page 191, under "Colours Of Fluorescence", lists candied sugar - pale cobalt blue. Not sure what wavelength he is using. ------------------------------------- Found this: Wood's Lamp "(at a wavelength of approximately 365 nanometers)" ------------------------------------- "Second, when viewed under ultraviolet illumination of ~370 nanometer wavelength, classical varnishes (as a rule) reveal a unique opaque yellowish-white fluorescent layer underneath the colored varnish. - VSA Papers Summer 2005 Vol. 1, No. 1, Koen Padding I'm not sure if 5 nm difference is enough to bring about a color change???? This could also be the ground varnish, and not the ground, but I thought I would put this in for any so inclined to pursue this. ------------------------------------- Does anyone know what wavelength they used? www.stradivarivarnish.com I don't think a difference of 5 nanometers in the peak will matter. It just needs to be in the range to cause enough excitation of the target material to make it emit visible light. A bigger issue is how much visible light the lamp itself is emitting, and polluting the fluorescing colors. In Sacconi's observations, for instance, the sugar may have had almost no fluorescence, so the violet color he was seeing was produced by visible-range violet light which wasn't completely filtered out by the Woods filter. Visible light pollution can also come from other strongly fluorescing objects in the vicinity, like a white T-shirt. Interestingly, dried linseed oil (my particular sample had driers) is yellowish-white, perhaps like Padding was describing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Hill Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 anybody remember this post? I suspect everyone thought him crazy........ "Step one: gently rub volcanic ash into the wood with the grain. Brush off any residue that didn't go into the pours of the wood. Step two: Blend an eggwhite, one teaspoon of whole milk and two tablespoons of pure honey (organic with no preservatives). Step three: Thin the mixture to a water like consistency with 100 proof grain alcohol. Let set overnight covered. Step four: apply the mixture with a fine sable brush against the grain. While the first coat is still damp, apply a second coat. Step five: while the second coat is still wet, ignite with a clear orange flame from a smokeless candle. Use appropriate fire proof clothing for this stage. Caution, do not do this indoors or outside. The flame will engulf the instrument and fuse the sugar and ash to the wood fibers. Do not let blacken! This in not for cajun music. Put out the flame with pure, screened, white sand. This is how the masters did it in Italy." as an anecdote, here in the very dry high desert, old time mechanics poured Karo syrup on car battery terminals. In low humidity, it dries to a clear resin that is all but waterproof, a real bear to get off. A little heat might do the same for a sugar resin in a humid environment. At the moment, I lack both the time and humidity to try it on wood. The quote is from this thread: http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=148035 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jezzupe Posted March 10, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Believe me, the blow torch is comming out soon Like those desserts them fancy pants people eat at them thar uppity restu'rants, that mater'd comes out with the torch and makes your dessert brown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Yacey Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Nero was the inventor of Fiddle Flambe, or would have been if violins existed in his time. Newnewb, I suspect the UV response would be more attributed to the ground varnish rather than the underlying seal. I am of the opinion if the sugar seal provides a real good seal against oil, offers the desired optical effect, and isn't a detriment to sound, it's a winner, even if it isn't Cremonally Correct. One thing I have seen mentioned repeatedly is the base ground varnish ( on the Cremonese instruments) adheres very well to the wood / seal, and isn't prone to chipping like the color layer. This seems to indicate poor adhesion between the two layers of oil varnish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 1/2 an hour ago, I decided to cook down some honey and see what I get. I used about 2 tablespoons into a small cast iron frying pan. I cooked it on medium heat until it developed a deep mahogany reddish brown color on the spoon that I was stirring it with. Then I carefully added boiling water a little at a time to keep it from spattering all over, and then poured it in a small jar. What I ended up with was a black liquid that when brushed on wood gives it a beautiful golden yellow -brown color. It also brings the flame out as well as anything I have seen, and it doesn't lock the flame either. This is one coat on some scrap rib stock. Is it just me, or is this unusually nice? Bill, Nothing about this process results in something that is waterproof, right? Any further observations regarding this process since you started? Was this experiment based on Manfios varnish methods or Oded's ground/colorant ideas? Sorry about all of the questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Yacey Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 I wouldn't call it waterproof by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think it's very hygroscopic either. I've had the spoon I was stirring it with soaking in water overnight, and the cooked honey is still solidly attached to the spoon. My wife may have some additional comments to add regarding this, when she finds it. I'm just heating the glue pot now, and I'll post back later with some more images. I remember reading some posts some time ago regarding using burnt sugar as a colorant, although I'm not sure who the author was. Jezzupe's posting about the sugar seal jogged my memory and piqued my interest enough to give it a try. I thought honey would be more in fitting as a potential historical, albeit remote possibility compared to refined sugar. The coloring I suspect should be pretty stable long term, as it's basically carbon particles providing the color. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNewbie Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 New newb....you missed a spot Where? Doh! Why you little..... how much does the devil pay you to be his advocate? Why tis a labour of Love me laddie! A labour of Love! Well I appreciate your inormative google action, yet I would encourage you to check it out. It is very easy to do test samples. But if you decide not to because you feel the system holds no merit,I understand. You will still most likely be able to observe others test's Actually I Yahoo'ed it! Sorry for being a pain! I have done more test samples than probably most here. I like to check things out for myself, rather than take someone's word for it. Also I do feel that the merit of this is in the 'Index of Refraction' being just right. I think buying one of these gadgets should help. Brix-Refractometer Best of with the blow torch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertdo Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Believe me, the blow torch is comming out soon Like those desserts them fancy pants people eat at them thar uppity restu'rants, that mater'd comes out with the torch and makes your dessert brown. Like a "banane flambee!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frederick Dale Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Like a "banane flambee!" After the violin "sugar' coating is dried, is it scraped or otherwise abraded before any other coatings are applied? Thanks Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Yacey Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 I wouldn't think it necessary; it's counterproductive to remove the seal when the intention is to create a barrier for the oil varnish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
violins88 Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 I am using those metal Malwart condiment cups on a stove with a glass top to heat my samples of sugar and honey. Works pretty well. You just slide the cup over when the boiling gets too high. I have googled "refractive index of sugar" and found only answers for sugar solution. Can some one tell me the following indices of refraction: solid table sugar and caramelized sugar caramelized honey cellulose or lignin (as in maple and spruce) Thanks john Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Yacey Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 I think buying one of these gadgets should help. Brix-Refractometer I was looking at these too, but they don't appear to be scaled for RI, but more for comparing alcohol percentage, or sugar percentage, etc. to water. I suppose using a comparison table with substances of a known RI, you could figure it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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