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jezzupe

sugar seal

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I have made a "sugar violin". The sound is really good (not necessarily because of the sugar ground :) ) and I like the colour. The instrument is still too new to say anything about how it will stand abrasion and use in the future.

 

imgp1528.jpg?w=450&h=298

 

imgp1531.jpg?w=450&h=298

 

An article, in Swedish :) , about the sugar violin is found here:

https://larsil2009.wordpress.com/2014/10/10/socker-som-bas-for-fiollack-del-2/

 

I will probably use the sugar base for my next violin too. I will do the varnishing slightly differently probably using less coloured varnish and let the sugar base provide the main colour. Please notice that the pictures were taken during set up. I don't leave the tuning pegs as shown on the picture ;) . Set up was, as usually, done in small steps trying to identify problems and ways to fix those problems. The plates were tuned from the inside at this stage iteratively together with bridge tuning.

The next stage will, hopefully, be to compare the violin to a borrowed Chanot in a big hall.

 Tack, var snall och prata.  :D  :ph34r:

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I heard that Sacconi's instruments are not holding up well varnish-wise. Not that some beautiful wear pattern is developing. Obviously, myself, I have no idea. I can't make any real argument against the practice, just what I heard. I have been messing around with some wood treatments but not the one you all do.

I was more commenting on the Swedish clique of two. I am easily perturbed. Oh, look, here's a fascinating article full of great information. It's in Swedish: that's ok, right? Gee, thanks. And then conversing in Swedish. It's smug. If you think you've discovered the secrets of the new Golden Age of violin making, by all means don't hold back.

Nothing to get perturbed over. If you are really intrigued by what they're discussing between themselves, Google translate is your friend.

 

You have to understand this is an international forum, and sometimes it's easier for someone who isn't fluent in English to use their own mother tongue. Nowhere is it stated English is mandatory.

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Hi all ! This is my first post.  My latest 16" viola with the sugar seal. Thank you Jezzupe !

Fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go round!....looks really nice!

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Thank you Stephen.

 

It was maple syrup that I used. Cooked and diluted it with warm water as Jezzupe described.  Before applying the sugar water, I damped the white violin, raised the grain, and lightly scraped or sanded twice.  Two coats of sugar water applied consecutively. Then followed by three coats of diluted shellac and then finished with oil varnish.

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What did Sacconi use in the violins that are not holding well?

From what I understand he did not use the same in all violins....or am I mistaken?

How good was Sacconi as a varnisher? (I know there are conflicting opinions here)

His antiqued ones are still awesome in an uncanny way and I think pictures are floating around of more of those. I guess this is only opinion but I think everyone agrees he was pretty amazing at making instruments look like old Strads. I was referring to his his straight-varnished ones as...funky.

This is a tricky thing, but I have to wonder if the vernice bianca was favored in his new-looking ones. They don't chip or wear as he probably expected. The ground layer seals out pigment entirely (so it appears). But obviously he did everything in his varnish chapter and more. Who knows when he used his silicate ground and when he used the sugar, and how the use of either affects wear after 100 years.

It really looks like he did some intervening layer after the ground that just doesn't look right. Evidently. I didn't get to see the actual examples other than pics of antiqued ones, but I got to hear about them. There's a photo in this Tarisio catalog of a wear pattern developing on one straight varnished example. Even in the picture it looks odd.

http://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/cozio-carteggio/a-fine-italo-american-violin-by-simone-sacconi-1940/

You judge. I think it looks funky. The seal is too complete (perhaps). What is that halo layer, or are the pictures on my phone just not showing how glorious the varnish is?? Opinions?

I know no one really knows if this one had the vernice bianca, but Sacconi seemed convinced about it.

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The wear looks really bad IMHO.... (Tarisio's link above, Sacconi's violin - not the sugar seal)

Yikes, Zoinkers Scoob....I'd agree with you on that. There is no graceful shoreline fade there, looks like someone peeled it off like a fruit roll up.

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Thank you Jezzupe ! Really appreciate your input on sugar seal.

The international sugar alliance, the lollipop guild and Willy Wonka thanks you for your participation in this world of imagination! :D

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What did Sacconi use in the violins that are not holding well?

 

From what I understand he did not use the same in all violins....or am I mistaken?

 

According to those who worked with him, he was always experimenting and changing his mind.

 

 

Yikes, Zoinkers Scoob....I'd agree with you on that. There is no graceful shoreline fade there, looks like someone peeled it off like a fruit roll up.

Abrupt broken edges is how varnish on the backs of many of the old Italian instruments originally wore, and something today's better antiquers tend to incorporate rather heavily. It's more common to see a "fade" on less skilled work.

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It sort of looks like Australia and Antarctica as I would imagine them from orbit. 

Then you might get a kick out of this instrument, which incorporates an outline of Italy. Joe and Sigrun have outrageous senses of humor!

 

opening3.jpg

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Yeah I shoulda stayed in California, I used to live very near their shop in some cow paddies west of Petaluma. 

 

In California you can go up into the hinterlands for a weekend and find there is a baroque group lurking under a rock. It's a strange and wonderful place. 

 

I'm going to do a Jasper Johns flag on my next cello. Viva Amerika. 

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According to those who worked with him, he was always experimenting and changing his mind.

 

 

Abrupt broken edges is how varnish on the backs of many of the old Italian instruments originally wore, and something today's better antiquers tend to incorporate rather heavily. It's more common to see a "fade" on less skilled work.

Do you have any pics you could post or direct me too? I must admit that this seems to be news to me, related to "Italian" wear being an abrupt shoreline break as picture in the Sacconi pic. I certainly don't doubt you, its just that I've never seen anything "Italian" that looks like that pic of Sacconi, nor have I seen any modern makers antique jobs try to mimic the wear seen in that pic, Saconni's violin certainly is nice as far as carving goes, but I agree with Carlo, that it looks kinda muggly. When I "think" of wear I think of natural "burn" though, that which does not have "straight" lines or edges as seen in the pic.

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Then you might get a kick out of this instrument, which incorporates an outline of Italy. Joe and Sigrun have outrageous senses of humor!

 

opening3.jpg

Personally I see "Grimace" {from Mcdonalds} looking into a hand mirror, that or Jabbba the hut...Pareidolias a funny thing

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Yeah I shoulda stayed in California, I used to live very near their shop in some cow paddies west of Petaluma. 

 

In California you can go up into the hinterlands for a weekend and find there is a baroque group lurking under a rock. It's a strange and wonderful place. 

 

I'm going to do a Jasper Johns flag on my next cello. Viva Amerika. 

They've moved from the rock and are now in the bushes around the outskirts of the Ren faire, just waiting, practicing their medevil speak while they lute...I heard they nabbed one guy trying to steal a sheep, something about gut strings er something :lol:

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Not sure what examples exist with normal wear and no french polishing. The Sacconi looks like alcohol spilled on the back. But as to what it "should" look like I don't know. Chippy acc. to Sacconi. That it does. But it's not pretty.

Any extant examples that show what look wear-wise you aim for?

Do you want a total seal in the ground, or is it better to get some pigment through that layer?

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Hi all ! This is my first post.  My latest 16" viola with the sugar seal. Thank you Jezzupe !

I love finishes that preserve the texture of high quality wood. The golden brown tones are amazing. Spectacular work. Thanks for sharing.

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I love finishes that preserve the texture of high quality wood. The golden brown tones are amazing. Spectacular work. Thanks for sharing.

 

Ironically, some of the most  interesting texture was of crappy wood destined for fence boards.

 

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It's not about "not knowing". In my case it's a bonus, I don't want to know. :)

But it's impolite, to put it mildly. 

I and Peter both belong to a small Swedish speaking minority in a fairly homogenous sea of people speaking Finnish. The only way of not loosing ones own culture/language is to use it whenever possible. When going by bus/train together with some friend and speaking ones own language it is unfortunately not too uncommon to hear that Finnish is spoken in Finland (which has two official language Finnish and Swedish). I don't really understand in which way it is impolite to communicate in ones own language?

Here on Maestronet the fun thing, and the reason we sometimes exchange trivialities in Swedish,  is of course that  every time :)  a foreign language is used it will draw some acid comment probably because people think some deep secrets are discussed :) .

 

I think that any language one is able to learn some small parts of is something interesting and valuable. Personally I own the following riches :) :

Mothers tongue Swedish, fluent i Finnish, fluent in English (I think :) ), able to understand written and spoken German, able to communicate in Norwegian and Danish. I have for fun been reading Persian and Dutch but I can't say that I know them. I can't speak for Peter but I guess he has access to a similar palette of languages, not necessarily completely overlapping though.

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