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jezzupe

sugar seal

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"I'll post pics when its done-done."

Really looking forward to that. This is the one you started some time ago, right? I've been hoping you would complete it and post photos.

Chet

Yes, thats the one, I'm not sure ow it will sound, I did not have control over wood choice, I don't get a good feeling about its sound based on the feel of the wood. But here again, I don't care, I was trying to "be inspired" in my representation. If I want sound to be the primary, I need to do it my way, traditional violins, are not my way.

I'm waiting for the fittings and doing some minor messing with "spots", but I will try to post it soon....Thanks

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But after some of the responses here, I do now understand why makers are reluctant to share information, not because they don't want to, but mostly because of the rude and negative.

Trust me, after this post dies, I will NEVER talk about my finish procedures EVER again

When I post pics, I will not list what the varnish is......period

I really appreciate guys like Manfio, who openly share what they do, but, because he uses mostly "established" products, there is no problem with it.

Start talking about home made stuff, pff' , your just "stupid".

Ha ha!

This reminds me of a thread, not long ago, where I was the first poster in line to recommend shellac as a workable modern ground medium.

Well, as you can imagine - various self proclaimed "authorities" immediately started chiming in, decrying the practice with all sorts of hypotheses and proofs against (in particular) its historical use (which, as with this example, wasn't really even part of the discussion) and etc., etc., etc. (The biggest and loudest detractor has not, to my knowledge, ever made a violin)

So, it isn't a mistake to simply state your preference, observation or method, and leave it at that.

Or, alternately, to carefully select which posts to respond to, and in good conscience, simply ignore the rest. In particular, ignoring those posters who insist on becoming derogatory or over emotional.

Other posters will be there to fill in the voids. And from those posters who can think for themselves, there will be inevitable valid points raised, and pragmatic observations.

Online discussions are somewhat of an art. Above all, in my opinion, it is important not to shut down and get discouraged by the flashback that can occur.

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That is exactly so; very often the credibility and experience of the poster isn't evident or established, so you have to weigh the advice or criticisms accordingly.

One thing I have noticed is the fixation to always gravitate back to comparing a substance and the plausibility of it being utilized by the Cremonese. To my mind, with this way of thinking, anything that might well be superior to what the Cremonese might have used is automatically discounted because it doesn't fit the established profile.

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Jesse;

about seven years ago I had a really nasty response (not the only one, obviously) regarding my varnish system at the time. It came from a couple of young makers, full of pride in their vast knowledge...NOT from their masters who had taught them. They had had nothing negative to say until I told them what it was, but then they were contemptuously dismissive, though they did not go so far as to call names, as some have in this forum-- they let their gestures and facial expressions do that part, along with the smirks they shared between themselves.

At that time I determined that (like you) I would never again share what I did in regard to varnish-- if they can't guess by looking, smelling, etc. then they just won't know. Since then I relented and decided that (like Craig) I would simply be more selective as to whom I would talk, and to whom I would listen. Those two guys weren't experts--just highly opinionated-- they had nothing to share, but plenty to condemn.

Don't let those kind of folk control you...I have appreciated your sharing, though your work style is non-traditional. You do good work, and have huge experience in your field. Why let someone else's rude mouth blunt your enthusiasm?

Chet

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Jesse;

. . . Don't let those kind of folk control you...I have appreciated your sharing, though your work style is non-traditional. You do good work, and have huge experience in your field. Why let someone else's rude mouth blunt your enthusiasm?

Chet

As a novice maker I've also appreciated your postings, Jezzupe.

otter

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There’s never any harm in posting observations and ideas here and I totally agree with CT in post #352.

I think that people are particularly touchy/secretive about what they post in relation to how they would varnish because they either think that they have found the secret or they don’t want to put up a scheme which might not work for someone else doing it and in the process appear to be charlatans. Anyone who has ever varnished or tried to make varnish will know how hit or miss the

process can be.

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I would like to point out that the woodworking forums are a little more hotly debated than anything I have come across here at Maestronet, and they are relatively tame compared to other forums.

In fact I would consider Maestronet to be the friendliest forum I have come across on the internet.

Keep posting knowing that you have to endure opposition in-order to get your point across, otherwise you are letting them 'win' by being silenced.

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As a novice maker I've also appreciated your postings, Jezzupe.

otter

Thanks, I have otter's in my backyard, we spend lots of qaulity time together, so, I like otters, above anything else, they are curious, next to that, they are happy

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But after some of the responses here, I do now understand why makers are reluctant to share information, not because they don't want to, but mostly because of the rude and negative.

Trust me, after this post dies, I will NEVER talk about my finish procedures EVER again

When I post pics, I will not list what the varnish is......period

I really appreciate guys like Manfio, who openly share what they do, but, because he uses mostly "established" products, there is no problem with it.

Start talking about home made stuff, pff' , your just "stupid".

Jezzupe,

I have been following this entire thread with great curiosity and have enjoyed it emensly. I have not posted anything until now because I am a repairer not a maker and honestly did not think I could contribute anything of value to the thread, but I have a little Made in China fiddle (with serious damage) that I am getting ready to strip and re-varnish, not because it is worth anything, but because I need lots more practice. This thread has been of great interest to me and I would be very, very sorry to see you follow through on your threat to not post any more information on this subject or the subject of "finish" in general.

-----Barry

So all I know is the benefits of sugar are

great adhesion to wood

great inner coat adhesion to it

color variety

excellent catonoyance

and barrier prevention of top coats soaking into the wood grain

easy to make

easy to apply

cheap

If you had not started this Thread, I would not know any of this. It may end up being "The Way", or it may not, but I really appreciate this information. Don't stop now.

-----Barry

(Lots of) Edit for spelling

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If you had not started this Thread, I would not know any of this. It may end up being "The Way", or it may not, but I really appreciate this information. Don't stop now.

-----Barry

(Lots of) Edit for spelling

Well I suppose if some wants to know about something in the future, if they ask, nicely, I guess I'll spill the beans, with the caveat that at a future date I may have to hunt them down and kill them for knowing too much. :D

Thanks you for your kind words, civility and cordiality with heated debate are what make this place what it is, I think most here can express their opposing opinions without the need to belittle and berate others.

But there again, I'm not here to impress or mislead neophytes, as some would call them, nor anyone else, I am here to explore the journey of sound with others who share the same passion.

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18 pages in...Jezzupe is way smarter than the assassins :D

Thank you Jezzupe...your postings always offer a good depth and openess....I'd hate for you to go all reserved and secretive.

Don't let stray monkeys spoil the party ;)

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18 pages in...Jezzupe is way smarter than the assassins :D

Thank you Jezzupe...your postings always offer a good depth and openess....I'd hate for you to go all reserved and secretive.

Don't let stray monkeys spoil the party ;)

AMEN to the above!

While I'll never be much of a maker, it's too late in the day for that, I live finishing, I love finishing theory and innovation, and I esteem highly the postings of all adventuresome experimenters in finishing.

Jezzupe, your approach lets even the plainest of wrought wood sing its in-born song. Please, please don't cut us out of your finishing life, Jezzupe!

(curious, happy) otter

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Well I suppose if some wants to know about something in the future, if they ask, nicely, I guess I'll spill the beans, with the caveat that at a future date I may have to hunt them down and kill them for knowing too much. :D

Thanks you for your kind words, civility and cordiality with heated debate are what make this place what it is, I think most here can express their opposing opinions without the need to belittle and berate others.

But there again, I'm not here to impress or mislead neophytes, as some would call them, nor anyone else, I am here to explore the journey of sound with others who share the same passion.

Well, I think I prefer the word "dillitante' rather than "neophyte", although dillitante also has several meanings, not all of them flattering. Lucky for me, I get to pick the one I like. :P

There has been a lot of information presented in this Thread, both pro and con, and I thank all of the members who have participated in this discussion, expecially Jezzupe for starting it all.

-----Barry

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I did some experiments tonight.

I mixed Orasol 4GN dye in denatured alcohol. This is a chrome based dye, I believe, so it is not my preference in terms of safety. But....

Wash the maple with this. Then another coat. Bright yellow, very slightly greenish. Then apply the reddish caramelized raw sugar. The consistency is very thin. Two coats. Wipe off, as jesse said.

After drying, apply two coats of casein. Rubbed in. I really like this result. The greenish yellow has shifted nicely toward, but not totally into, red. I will follow with oil varnish, colored with transparent iron oxide (red/brown).

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I did some experiments tonight.

I mixed Orasol 4GN dye in denatured alcohol. This is a chrome based dye, I believe, so it is not my preference in terms of safety. But....

Wash the maple with this. Then another coat. Bright yellow, very slightly greenish. Then apply the reddish caramelized raw sugar. The consistency is very thin. Two coats. Wipe off, as jesse said.

After drying, apply two coats of casein. Rubbed in. I really like this result. The greenish yellow has shifted nicely toward, but not totally into, red. I will follow with oil varnish, colored with transparent iron oxide (red/brown).

Who is Jesse? :rolleyes: My name is Jessupe Goldastini, millionaire, I own a mansion and yacht, "Again!" My name is Jessupe Goldastini......"Again!" :lol:

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I did some experiments tonight.

I mixed Orasol 4GN dye in denatured alcohol. This is a chrome based dye, I believe, so it is not my preference in terms of safety. But....

Wash the maple with this. Then another coat. Bright yellow, very slightly greenish. Then apply the reddish caramelized raw sugar. The consistency is very thin. Two coats. Wipe off, as jesse said.

After drying, apply two coats of casein. Rubbed in. I really like this result. The greenish yellow has shifted nicely toward, but not totally into, red. I will follow with oil varnish, colored with transparent iron oxide (red/brown).

Actually I realised that the sugar (unheated or caramelised ) is water soluble because of the hydroxil groups. Blocking these groups makes it much less soluble. And a good way to block them is through the maillard reaction which is a kind of caramelisation when there is sugar and protein at the same time. Since casein is very insoluble in water and rather heat resistant, why not simply heat some milk (maybe with some sugar added) until is gets brown? This would make lactose -casein maybe a potential sealer with golden brown colour ans with some water insolubility properties.

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Actually I realised that the sugar (unheated or caramelised ) is water soluble because of the hydroxil groups. Blocking these groups makes it much less soluble. And a good way to block them is through the maillard reaction which is a kind of caramelisation when there is sugar and protein at the same time. Since casein is very insoluble in water and rather heat resistant, why not simply heat some milk (maybe with some sugar added) until is gets brown? This would make lactose -casein maybe a potential sealer with golden brown colour ans with some water insolubility properties.

Why not indeed my good man. Remember, you shall not be judged in the future by your fellow man, you will be judged by......THE VIOLIN POLICE :o:lol:

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Ha ha!

This reminds me of a thread, not long ago, where I was the first poster in line to recommend shellac as a workable modern ground medium.

 

Wot? Shellac? You can't use shellac! According to Charles Reade, whoever employs this vile, flinty gum commits willful suicide as a Cremonese varnisher. He was after all quite an authority on such things,  and therefore it must be so. :ph34r:

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.... Charles Reade.... He was after all quite an authority on such things,  and therefore it must be so. :ph34r:

Of all of the golden (mouldy) oldies, Reade is the most insufferable. :ph34r:

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The sugar council has alerted me via the bat signal that there's been a fresh post about sugar seal, Yes, I believe several people, besides me, have used it successfully, if they chime in or not, well, they're probably not on councils payroll like I am :rolleyes:

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You have to be very careful playing a sugar sealed instrument like this outside. Once the bees get a sniff of the sugar, you'll end up engulfed in a swarm. :lol:

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