sugar seal

[jezzupe]

Here we have

Sugar seal

Shellac seal

Glue wash seal

First shot is glue, shellac then sugar, the other is in reverse

When viewing these photo's you can orient yourself by noting that the glue seal area has a "funky" cracked end.The following series of photos has shot showing the board rotated.

These sample are dry, note how the sugar looks the best. Highly refractive, lots of chatoyancy. The shellac and glue has lots of "missing" chatoyancy

The glue wash has introduced a "white" to the grain.

[jezzupe]

In these shots we now have.

Glue with shellac, shellac with shellac and sugar with glue ontop...To me this is a ver important photo, it shows that the glue does not "white" out the grain when applied to sugar seal

Sugar still looks best

[jezzupe]

Here we have the board outside in different light. The sugar with glue has now had a thin coat of shellac added...now the entire board has wax free shellac on it

[jezzupe]

Now we have a Thin coat of colored oil varnish, note how the sugar side takes the color better than the others. The product was applied in the same manner across the entire board

[jezzupe]

One more thin coat of color

[jezzupe]

And finally the last clear coat has been applied.

To me, the sugar area looks best from start to finish.

Regardless of angle of view, the sugar ALWAYS is showing more chatoyancy than the others. The others can look good in certain light. But the sugar looks good and shows flame at angles and in light that the others don't

Not only that, the up close texture is better.

This also shows that a protein wash, one that could be modified that be water repellent, could be applied on top without disrupting the refraction....only AFTER sugar water has been applied FIRST.

I don't have time today to go over it much, but do look forward to talking about it latter. If anyone has questions of comments, leave them and I will address them latter.

[MikeC]

in the ouside sunlight pic the middle section shellac looks better to me but the sugar looks better in the other photos. I think there is more curly grain on the sugar end of the board so that will look better anyway. There's always going to be a difference between looking at a picture vs. seeing it in person though so it's hard to judge.

I like the color of that color varnish. What is it?

[MikeC]

something else that would be interesting to see side by side with those is just a colorless varnish directly on the wood.

[JimMurphy]

Jezzupe,

Looks good now, but, I wonder what happens to clarity as the sugar water coating's RI changes with age [uV exposure, humidity, etc.]. Opacity???

Thanks,

Jim

[fiddlecollector]

Interesting but i think you need like Mike hinted at to have an even flame across the samples ,otherwise it hard to compare the effect.

I was reading in an old varnish /artist material book that thinks boiled down molasses is the best source of a natural brown colour.

[scordatura]

What solvents and ratio of solid to liquid for each? I would think this would be somewhat important.

[Brian McLinden]

Jezzupe,

These maple findings are yummy, but I believe the desire is for comparable photographs.

The maple varies from one end to the other... which can't be helped. What happens if you use a homogeneous spruce board, divided across in sections by masking tape?

In a prior post you had indicated sugar concentrations of 2.7 - 6.0 tablespoons per cup of hot water. What do you recommend at this time?

Your work is a service to all. Thank you for it.

Brian

[jezzupe]

Yeah' I got off a little early, so...

Actually, the board has quite a bit of flame all the way across, the photo's show how the flame dies out on the other sealers where it does not on the sugar, related to angle of view.

I will sand it all off and coat the entire board with

sugar

glue wash

shellac

color varnish {one coat}

and a clear top coat

I predict that the board will show flame across the hole board, areas that did not show flame with the glue and shellac will show with the sugar....I think

[cmkaco]

Would be a good idea to take some "before" pictures of the raw wood. Also, to counter those who will argue that their favorite product got the "bad end of the stick," you might divide the board in half lengthwise as well and perhaps leave one side unfinished, so they can see the before right next to the finished side. Just a thought. I understand it is hard to do a really pure experiment with something as variable as curly maple, but we do thank you for your efforts in doing this. It is very educational.

[go_oa]

Pectin is a BIG sugar.

The sugar molecule is small. Pectin is an intermediatebigger than sugar,

much smaller than wood.

I am curious, how would pectin (Home made Jelly section) look??

[MikeC]

for a test board it would probably be better to use a nicely figured rib strip. that would have more uniform curl. I also thought of getting a large square of figured maple and divide it like an x y grid. Various substance listed down the side and various listed across the bottom and then each square in the grid would be a different combination.

I'd still like to know what you are using for the colored varnish.

[jezzupe]

Here's a preliminary shot of just sugar on the same board after it has been sanded. I will tr to go over some of the individual questions and suggestions latter, right now I don't have the typing time.

Well the board is what it is, but I think you will see how we have better over all chatoyancy across the whole board now, where as before there were areas that were not showing flame and or there is now flame showing where there was not with the other sealers because they do not refract light like the sugar does.

[Bill Yacey]

1/2 an hour ago, I decided to cook down some honey and see what I get. I used about 2 tablespoons into a small cast iron frying pan. I cooked it on medium heat until it developed a deep mahogany reddish brown color on the spoon that I was stirring it with. Then I carefully added boiling water a little at a time to keep it from spattering all over, and then poured it in a small jar. What I ended up with was a black liquid that when brushed on wood gives it a beautiful golden yellow -brown color. It also brings the flame out as well as anything I have seen, and it doesn't lock the flame either. This is one coat on some scrap rib stock.

[NewNewbie]

Now just place a similar sample in some fresh water, and then into some sea water, just like the Red Diamond violin, and see what happens to the raw exposed ground?

The key here is what 'Index of Refraction' do you now have, and then find a way of duplicating that with a substance that matches the same I of R , but has also the same qualities of a Classical Ground coating.

Substitute your caramelized honey into the 'Vernice Bianca' formula and the egg white will give it some durability, but there still are the drawbacks that a hygroscopic coating brings with it, and the lack of durability that has been demonstrated by 300 plus year old instruments.

[Bill Yacey]

Now just place a similar sample in some fresh water, and then into some sea water, just like the Red Diamond violin, and see what happens to the raw exposed ground?

The key here is what 'Index of Refraction' do you now have, and then find a way of duplicating that with a substance that matches the same I of R , but has also the same qualities of a Classical Ground coating.

I intend on mixing this with casein next. I'm not trying to recreate the Cremonese ground, just something that works. I also don't intend on using my violins for canoe paddles. If an end user puts it to such a test, the warranty is void!

Was the Red Diamond violin ground varnish exposed to water, or was the ground varnish missing too, leaving only the underlying seal? Most research indicates the Cremonese ground was actually a short oil varnish applied over top of the initial wood sealer. The ground varnish would probably hold up to water for some time.

[jezzupe]

1/2 an hour ago, I decided to cook down some honey and see what I get. I used about 2 tablespoons into a small cast iron frying pan. I cooked it on medium heat until it developed a deep mahogany reddish brown color on the spoon that I was stirring it with. Then I carefully added boiling water a little at a time to keep it from spattering all over, and then poured it in a small jar. What I ended up with was a black liquid that when brushed on wood gives it a beautiful golden yellow -brown color. It also brings the flame out as well as anything I have seen, and it doesn't lock the flame either. This is one coat on some scrap rib stock.

If it drys dry to touch, anything will stick to it...looks sweet, super Cremona, try diluted hide after, you'll see how it won't change the color, thus allowing a modified water repllent glue wash to be applied. Which could answer "how could "it" have a protien layer and still be "oil" looking.

Think about it, have you ever seen a water base base finish that looks as "oil like" as that? One that only gets more golden and mature as time goes by?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MiQzAo6Cp8&feature=related

'

[Bill Yacey]

It's been about 40 minutes since I applied it to the rib stock. It's more or less dry now, if I press my thumb into it there is a slight tack yet.

I wouldn't hesitate to put oil varnish directly on top of this without the glue.

Who needs protein if the wood is already effectively sealed against oil by the honey solution?

[jezzupe]

It's been about 40 minutes since I applied it to the rib stock. It's more or less dry now, if I press my thumb into it there is a slight tack yet.

For a sample, if you apply glue wash next, you can do so "nowish", if you are going to apply varnish, wait until tomorrow, or use a hair dryer to "set" it and further dry it, then you can put varnish on tonight, but it should be quite dry first, you don't want to trap water under varnish, it will do funny stuff.

If it was a violin, you would wait overnight before the glue, too much water too quick, no good.

And yes, honey,molasses,corn syrups can be used if they are cooked and have the moisture removed so that when cool they would be "glass"...and or naturally hard at room temp.

[jezzupe]

Now just place a similar sample in some fresh water, and then into some sea water, just like the Red Diamond violin, and see what happens to the raw exposed ground?

The key here is what 'Index of Refraction' do you now have, and then find a way of duplicating that with a substance that matches the same I of R , but has also the same qualities of a Classical Ground coating.

Substitute your caramelized honey into the 'Vernice Bianca' formula and the egg white will give it some durability, but there still are the drawbacks that a hygroscopic coating brings with it, and the lack of durability that has been demonstrated by 300 plus year old instruments.

[Bill Yacey]

My glue pot is cold. Tomorrow I'll put glue over a portion of the sample, and then I'll apply clear oil varnish over the whole piece and see what it looks like. If I'm energetic enough, maybe I'll whip up some casein too.