MikeC Posted March 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 I believe it most certainly is - as a reagent. But you get a nice orange brown if you apply it to pine and follow by a peroxide. Of course the Cremonese had alternative means of oxidation... ah ok, I didn't know that. I've been using potassium permanganate. It's bright purple but turns a nice warm brown on wood. Also it's a strong oxidizer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian McLinden Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 ah ok, I didn't know that. I've been using potassium permanganate. It's bright purple but turns a nice warm brown on wood. Also it's a strong oxidizer. Dichromate is another popular oxidizer that finishers use. In general, I've observed that a master trick used throughout the practical arts (it was surely employed by the glassmakers) is to build up a desired resultant color/coating by applying perhaps several diverse constituents successively. Mineral dyeing depends on the use of substances or preparations (not always water solutions) that are applied and "dried" successively - not invoked or used all at the same time as in a one-pot approach. Ideally these layers (solutions, preparations) will be applied extremely thin for enhanced reactivity. Certain reactions are not otherwise possible. Multiple layers of whatever materials may be a nice way to accomplish subtle variety of shading color over a piece, since color corrections are more easily made with this approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlecollector Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 You can see a lot with a standard "BLB" bulb. I don't think it's too much different from the "spec" museum lamp we had at Oberlin last year, but I haven't had them side by side. I think I was seeing slightly different things and colors many years ago when I was using a high-pressure mercury discharge woods lamp. That setup seemed to emit almost no visible light, and make things fluoresce very strongly. I was messing with a hp mercury UV lamp today to see what it photographed like. After several attempts and exposure and trying to avoid natural light contamination i came up with this of an area of varnish on one of my cellos ,first pic is under normal light the second under UV. Its certainly interesting to experiment with. You cant actually see the actual ground layer in this pics as it isnt worn down enough,only down to a layer above the ground. I did use a infra red remote on the camera for safety Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actonern Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Melving: Nice photo in post 87... I don't suppose you have a sample of the same coating on spruce do you? Best regards, E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Goldsmith Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 oops....the picture had not loaded yet. Looks good! The ground in my photo has a skim coat of clear rosin varnish as we use it for varnishing practice at the workshops...but all the color is in the wood/ground. Violin was white when I started...no sun tan. on we go, Joe Joe thanks for the clarification...looking at Mike Molnars pics from your workshop there is some great stuff going on..Mike's violin's varnish is very exciting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Goldsmith Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Melving: Nice photo in post 87... I don't suppose you have a sample of the same coating on spruce do you? Best regards, E Not out of the same pot but Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Goldsmith Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Melving: Nice photo in post 87... I don't suppose you have a sample of the same coating on spruce do you? Best regards, E Not out of the same pot but same method...I'm looking for a better way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scordatura Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Not out of the same pot but same method...I'm looking for a better way. I'm liking the cello. Nice work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actonern Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Seriously? The cello is varnished with this technique? Wow! (The violin looks too much like the Messiah for my liking ) E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerobson Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 Not out of the same pot but same method...I'm looking for a better way. Melving, Nicely done! Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerobson Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 COMMENTS by Joe Robson: "For my eye...I have never seen or tested a protein based application that did not mask the depth of reflectivity in the wood." The reflectivity that Joe mentions remains an open question, Brian, My observation....there is a three dimensional aspect to the best of the Italian Ground. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janito Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 Brian, My observation....there is a three dimensional aspect to the best of the Italian Ground. Joe Is thickness important to achieve the 3D effect? If so, I wonder whether an element of 'magnification' of the underlying wood produces the effect of 'looking into' its structure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerobson Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 Is thickness important to achieve the 3D effect? If so, I wonder whether an element of 'magnification' of the underlying wood produces the effect of 'looking into' its structure. Janito, Yes the magnification effect of the varnished surface accentuates the effect. The depth which is magnified comes from the wood itself. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC Posted March 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 magnification of wood structure? that's hard to believe. I don't know a whole lot about optics but I don't see a flat layer of varnish or ground acting like a planoconvex lens.... or any other kind of magnifier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Carlson Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 Janito, Yes the magnification effect of the varnished surface accentuates the effect. The depth which is magnified comes from the wood itself. Joe Like this? There's hardly any varnish here above the wood but it is the wood that contributes to the optical effect. The photograph here doesn't do it justice, I had the sensation I could reach out and touch the waves. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Carlson Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 magnification of wood structure? that's hard to believe. I don't know a whole lot about optics but I don't see a flat layer of varnish or ground acting like a planoconvex lens.... or any other kind of magnifier. I think we all have to be careful of the terminology used to describe a certain effect otherwise it is total chaos. Maybe a better word would be enhance? Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian McLinden Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 How to get that 3D look? Multiple thin film systems as seen in nature can be exceedingly beautiful. I'm convinced the Italian Ground system employed the science and craft of multiple thin film systems. This was hinted in my post #102. I believe the practice of using [A] chemically diverse, exceedingly thin, and [C] absolutely penetrating films, 3-4 at least, is how to make up the "Italian Ground". To employ Joe's website language, perhaps one must use a "series of applications," not entirely reliant on "wet chemistry," each which has "little or no film thickness." This may answer the question of post #112, is "thickness" important to achieve the 3D effect? A triangle is prominent on Joe's home page at violinvarnish.com - is anything being hinted by this? Is the chemistry of aging always useless or a bad thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christian bayon Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCockburn Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 looks great Christian. What's the process? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christian bayon Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 It´s just a joke! the first picture is the Reynier Strad and the second is a violin I made. I just want to say a picture with the right light can make a modern varnish looking "cremonese", it does´nt mind when you have the fiddle in your hand it will be the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCockburn Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 It´s just a joke! the first picture is the Reynier Strad and the second is a violin I made. I just want to say a picture with the right light can make a modern varnish looking "cremonese", it does´nt mind when you have the fiddle in your hand it will be the same. Yes, I recognised it from the other thread. I'd still like to know the process you use to get the ground colour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oded Kishony Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 magnification of wood structure? that's hard to believe. I don't know a whole lot about optics but I don't see a flat layer of varnish or ground acting like a planoconvex lens.... or any other kind of magnifier. Using films with different refractive indexes can either magnify or telescope the underlying wood. Oded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janito Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 magnification of wood structure? that's hard to believe. I don't know a whole lot about optics but I don't see a flat layer of varnish or ground acting like a planoconvex lens.... or any other kind of magnifier. Suppose the surface of the wood is undulating creating alternating convex and concave interfaces with the ground or varnish, might that not create alternating lens effects, especially if layers on the wood surface have different refractive indices? --------- Oooops - missed Oded's reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Ihle Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 I can second the opinion on Petrus of Mantua. I have seen two Petrus' of Mantua and one in particular had varnish to die for. I had the violin for a day and could not stop looking and marveling at the varnish, color, ground etc. I wish I had taken photos of that fiddle as example of what to do with the finish and ground. Dear all, I want to contribute one shot I took an a Peter Guarneri Mantova violin that is one of my most liked varnish jobs - this is what I expect from the ground. Philip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 Nice photo, Philip. That effect is hard to capture on film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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