Jump to content
Maestronet Forums

What is your favorite stain post the "tan"


scordatura

Recommended Posts

When I interviewed him for an article for our local violinmakers' group (SCAVM), the topic of varnishing was about the only thing about which he preferred not to give specifics. He did, however, admit to "sometimes" using minerals in a ground, and that he used no oil in the first few things that go onto the wood.

Don is there a link to the interview?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 72
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Everything you need to know about varnish, stain, undercoating, etc., to mimic any finish you want to mimic, you can find here in various discussions on M-net. Probably you could not convincingly counterfeit a Strad, but then again, neither can anyone else I know.

What IS hard to understand is;

Exactly what look you actually want to achieve. Most people are struggling for something without having a good idea what it is they are struggling for, all they know is that it isn’t what they can accomplish immediately with what they are using NOW, or with how they are using it.

Then, it is a matter of becoming familiar enough with the available materials to accomplish the look you want.

MOST of which rests entirely with the application techniques.

Sounds simple enough, doesn't it?

I understand why many makers hesitate to say exactly what they do, plus, very often, the illusion of a mystery or the pretense of a secret does more to advertise for the maker than simple pragmatic instructions involving hardware store, or, simple commonplace mail order goods.

Often, we want there to be something esoteric involved.

If you (not you personally; anyone) want secrets, work hard and create some yourself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Melvin, i dont think everyone has 350 euros to spend on yet another expensive violin publication.I gave up buying expensive books a while ago.If i remember right i first mentioned this publication on here and you were the first to discredit it and said you wouldnt be buying it. Funny how hype changes minds. I guess the book may be useful to some but there is not an awful lot in it that i wouldnt really have guessed at.Also it is just one `camps` view of things. But if everyone wants to make Greiner richer thats fine by me. :)

....................

Hehe!

Bob you make good points there.

I'm not too ashamed to admit changing my opinions & contradicting myself on a regular basis :)

Did you buy the book? You'd be a great person to review it.

From My perspective ....Brandmair and team believe they find evidence of an as yet unspecified stain layer as the second layer of Strad's varnish system, the first layer being an unspecified protein sealer.

The book has some very wonderful photographs in natural and UV light at different magnifications. The 'stain layer' is visible under UV as they see it.

In my reading the book contains enough data and photography to be useful to a reader who wishes to develop their own conclusions.

Yeh, the book is not cheap but it's worth visiting the library for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

....................

Hehe!

Bob you make good points there.

I'm not too ashamed to admit changing my opinions & contradicting myself on a regular basis :)

I'll second and third that! :rolleyes:

Strike that, I changed my mind! :(

Especially when it comes to varnish!

To anyone just starting out, may I suggest you start numbering your varnishes now, so you can see how long it takes to get to 100 different samples?

Yeh, the book is not cheap but it's worth visiting the library for.

Library??? :huh: What's that???? :unsure::rolleyes::o:lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read that section of Zigs book about the stain and ground. It mentions him heating it under a heat lamp and little whisps of smoke coming out the F holes. Does that mean the ground is penetrating all the way through the wood from the outside all the way through to the inside? Interesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been cooking up some tea and trying it out on some scraps of wood, and so far the results look good. Regarding the "clear when hot, cloudy precipitate when cool", I found that filtering and boiling down didn't improve things. However, some potassium hydroxide re-dissolved the precipitate completely. Using too much KOH will leave the mixture too alkaline, and have variable results when applied to the wood (my maple was OK, but the spruce turned dark gray). I had to adjust the PH with more tea and some hydrochloric acid. It would probably come out right by adding just a little KOH at a time to the tea, leaving just a hint of cloudiness. Fun with chemistry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been cooking up some tea and trying it out on some scraps of wood, and so far the results look good. Regarding the "clear when hot, cloudy precipitate when cool", I found that filtering and boiling down didn't improve things. However, some potassium hydroxide re-dissolved the precipitate completely. Using too much KOH will leave the mixture too alkaline, and have variable results when applied to the wood (my maple was OK, but the spruce turned dark gray). I had to adjust the PH with more tea and some hydrochloric acid. It would probably come out right by adding just a little KOH at a time to the tea, leaving just a hint of cloudiness. Fun with chemistry.

So as to avoid the problematic use of tea, KOH, HCl, and pH-meters, would you consider using a modern coloring alternative, such as one or more of Dr. Martin's permanent dyes to get the shading you want?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So as to avoid the problematic use of tea, KOH, HCl, and pH-meters, would you consider using a modern coloring alternative, such as one or more of Dr. Martin's permanent dyes to get the shading you want?

Certainly. In fact, I was wondering about that... a lot of folks use tea, but a few mention modern dyes. Seems to me that water-soluble analine dyes come in any color you'd want, they're light-fast, and not horribly expensive. What I was wondering is if anyone discarded the idea of using dyes because of any problem they've had (and I'm only talking about water or alcohol soluble; I know about the disappearing oil-soluble dyes).

I do have a few water-soluble analine dyes, and may use them to adjust the color if I want something slightly different. The basic tea color looks very nice as it is, and let's face it: you can't beat the price or availability. And the "brown" analine dye I have is more like black.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I was wondering is if anyone discarded the idea of using dyes because of any problem they've had (and I'm only talking about water or alcohol soluble; I know about the disappearing oil-soluble dyes).

Hi Don,

I think one of the "greatest challenges" is whether you could dye Spruce, lightly 'sand' [or 'other'] to reverse any color reversals AND still achieve a Master Cremonese finish.

Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Don,

I think one of the "greatest challenges" is whether you could dye Spruce, lightly 'sand' [or 'other'] to reverse any color reversals AND still achieve a Master Cremonese finish.

Jim

That is denfinitely a difficulty for ANY coloring applied to the wood, analine, tea, or otherwise. Fortunately, my thermally processed spruce is dark enough, so I'll only be trying to get some color into the maple.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I was wondering is if anyone discarded the idea of using dyes because of any problem they've had (and I'm only talking about water or alcohol soluble; I know about the disappearing oil-soluble dyes).

Yes. Not that I've totally discarded the idea, but one can find that they're quite good in one spirit varnish, and fade badly in another. They are far from a sure thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

photographed on a white sheet to try and get correct color in the photo. There's a little streakyness but that's just natural in the wood.

no suntan, just potassium permanganate.

I think the pictures look slightly more yellowish than it appears in real life.

post-31367-0-87880100-1299361795_thumb.jpg

post-31367-0-16197500-1299361821_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...