scordatura Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I was wondering what people like to use to give the wood additional color after the tanning process? I have tried coffee, and even a watercolor stain. Ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANFIO Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 The problem is the endgrain... I like strong tea (3 times more tea than would be used in England, boiled) because you can control it giving many coats till you get the desired colour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scordatura Posted February 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 No one else wants to chime in??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 No one else wants to chime in??? OK, I'll chime in. I agree with Manfio, tea works very well (especially along with taning). Stain isn't generally well received in the violin making world, for all of the obvious reasons. That's why, I ground coat with garnet or amber shellac. It gives me the base color I want before the varnish goes on. Before you listen to the prophets of doom, talking about eternal damnation waiting for those who use shellac, look at post #37 in the "What's on your bench" thread, where Ken Pollard refers to an earlier post of his in the same thread with a picture of a beautiful example of a violin he just put the ground coat on, which was done this way. I can vouch for the fact that, properly done, it elliminates the need for a dark stain. This is just one of many methods and workable techniques. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 I can vouch for the fact that, properly done, it elliminates the need for a dark stain. Plus, it seems to work VERY well, acoustically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 Plus, it seems to work VERY well, acoustically. Wait a second, give me a minute, I'll think of something else to add. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeC Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 I'm curious, did the old Cremona masters tan or stain before the varnish? or did they just put a ground and then varnish over white wood? Or does anyone know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertdo Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 there was much sun in Italy (there always is), so UV tanning was easier there than it is where I live (unless you have a UV box) I recently used onion skins for my latest violin, and was happy with it. I found it more appealing than the tea I used before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimRobinson Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 I like strong tea (3 times more tea than would be used in England, boiled) because you can control it Have you ever drunk tea in England 3 times stronger! They way to determine you have the right strength is to stop when the spoon stands up in it. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCockburn Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 Have you ever drunk tea in England 3 times stronger! They way to determine you have the right strength is to stop when the spoon stands up in it. Tim "When I makes tea I makes tea, as old mother Grogan said. And when I makes water I makes water" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Tucker Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 I'm curious, did the old Cremona masters tan or stain before the varnish? or did they just put a ground and then varnish over white wood? Or does anyone know? Mike, People have been asking that question here (on M-net) as long as I can remember. The consesus is pretty much in - outside of a few individuals who have made it part of their life's mission to eschew shellac, no one really knows. I believe shellac is simply offered as a present day workable solution, for people who actually make violins and need to use something. I have never heard ayone claim it is part of an "authentic Cremonese method", though, apparently it was around at that time. It's simple, commonly available, inexpensive, easy to use, and looks really nice. I thin it way back with alcohol and give it two or three coats which I knock back with scotch brite or micromesh prior to the oil varnish... If it is Cremonese "authenticity" you want, the research will probably never end and is ongoing and often contradictory. Perhaps they experimented with different substances as much as we do today? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scordatura Posted February 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 I agree that short of empirical evidence for the ground--despite electron microscopes and spectroscopy (damn I hate it when organic compounds are indistinguishable)and old wives tales, you are right ctviolin we do need to make a choice and go with it. To me to get a good look to the overall picture; we need a proper wood color which is separate from the ground and varnish. I have found that time in the sun or a light box (I miss living in Hawaii for the sun but not the constant high humidity) sometimes does not yield what I want. I was reading the "violin maker" book about Ziggy and he uses what is called a wash that according to the author yields a cinnamon color (hopefully Marchese is not color blind--just kidding). "I washed it with a very light wash of pigment to seal it a little bit". This is before he put the ground on. This is what got my wheels turning about something before the ground was applied. Ziggys fiddles do look and sound good. My concern is that I do not want to fully seal the wood with a stain of some type because I want my ground to penetrate the wood. However the end grain absorption poses problems when using a stain. Notice Ziggy said seal a little bit. After all we should study this guy as he is an excellent maker. Besides he gets a pretty good price for his fiddles…all envious violin makers begin biting lip now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scordatura Posted February 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 Off topic My mother was English. Tea was indeed strong. Ive also heard that the colorful luthier "Nigo" Nigogosian liked Turkish style coffee. I drink strong espresso every day. Perhaps I should spill some espresso on my fiddles. Wait...I wonder if Stradivari was an espresso drinker. Eureka! I've found the secret! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNewbie Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 there was much sun in Italy (there always is), so UV tanning was easier there than it is where I live (unless you have a UV box) I recently used onion skins for my latest violin, and was happy with it. I found it more appealing than the tea I used before. Yes but have you ever tried to drink a cup of onion skins????? Yuk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCockburn Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 I'll make the following comment with some trepidation as I know that there are several members of the forum who have seen far more old Italian violins at much closer quarters than I have. To me, I can see that some makers like Ceruti and Storioni started the varnish process with rather white wood, applying a golden coloured base coat over the top, before the coloured varnish layer. So where the varnish is heavily worn away, a "tricolore" effect can be seen, white/gold/red-brown. I have not noticed this effect on Amati/guarneri/stradivari instruments, where the golden base colour seems intimately part of the wood. In the case of some instruments like the Viotti strad, this base colour seems too intense to be the result of UV alone, and I wonder if this suggests the use of a stain or chemical treatment of some form in some cases. As I said, just my personal observations and interpretations. I will welcome any contradiction as part my ongoing education! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCockburn Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 Off topic My mother was English. Tea was indeed strong. Ive also heard that the colorful luthier "Nigo" Nigogosian liked Turkish style coffee. I drink strong espresso every day. Perhaps I should spill some espresso on my fiddles. Wait...I wonder if Stradivari was an espresso drinker. Eureka! I've found the secret! Perhaps if we English drank our strong tea from ludicrously small cups we would be regarded as the very epitome of sophistication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNewbie Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 Mike, People have been asking that question here (on M-net) as long as I can remember. The consesus is pretty much in - outside of a few individuals who have made it part of their life's mission to eschew shellac, no one really knows. Boo-Haa-Haa! It is our duty to suppress anyone who tries to even reveal a small part of 'secret ingredient “7X”'! Oppps!!! Looks like we failed! I believe shellac is simply offered as a present day workable solution, for people who actually make violins and need to use something. I have never heard ayone claim it is part of an "authentic Cremonese method", though, apparently it was around at that time. Varnishes and Very Curious Secrets, Cremona 1747; edited by Vincenzo Gheroldi "Study based on a knowledge and skills in preparing varnishes for painting as well as " Chinese varnishes" and varnishes for miniature painting. Colection of amateur recipes in a 18th century manuscript in a Milan library." from this link It's simple, commonly available, inexpensive, easy to use, and looks really nice. I thin it way back with alcohol and give it two or three coats which I knock back with scotch brite or micromesh prior to the oil varnish... It is simple for the most part, but it was really hard for Stradivari to get a hold of .... scotch brite and micromesh! If it is Cremonese "authenticity" you want, the research will probably never end and is ongoing and often contradictory. Perhaps they experimented with different substances as much as we do today? Amen to that Brother! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNewbie Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 Plus, it seems to work VERY well, acoustically. Ahhh! Now why did you have to go and ruin a perfectly good post!!! Tell me now that you drink Pepsi! If it ain't broke, then don't fix it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNewbie Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 No one else wants to chime in??? I have to admit that when it comes to chiming in, I feel that it is something very close to my ....heart. Here is the secret!. Enough chiming? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scordatura Posted February 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 You guys are too funny! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNewbie Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 You guys are too funny! I 'can' fix that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actonern Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 Another attractive feature of shellac is that it seems to stick to everything and everything seems to stick to it...in terms of film adhesion between dissimilar coatings... E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iburkard Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 It depends on the look you want. Tea works well and is very reflective (three bags of tea to one or two cups of water reduced), but sometimes I need even more color to match a repaired area. Water color pigments work well, they're very clear if you buy the right ones. I also use a cool semi opaque brown ink and black (thinned with water) to get darks where I need them. The best thing to do is start with a thin mix, and see how it reacts with the wood, and move forward. It's important to let the stain dry fully so that you can see what it's doing. Wet wood always looks dark when it's wet, but dries much lighter. Most wood has a limit to how much it is willing to draw in, with endgrain always wanting to lap up the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
actonern Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 For you tea users... I find that intense concentrations of tea when left to cool actually precipitate color to the bottom, leaving less intensity of color to the remaining liquid... If the precipitate is shaken up prior to application the effect is a bit like pigment... with the disadvantages of pigment on bare wood... How do you deal with this? best regards, Ernie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_Molnar Posted February 20, 2011 Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 I wish you guys were here with me at Joe Robson's Varnish Workshop in Concord, MA. The Workshop hasn't even started and I learned a helluva lot from "Prof. Varnish". Stay Tuned. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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