Ken_N Posted May 1, 2011 Report Posted May 1, 2011 I have a new ground system, the old one seemed to block too much wood. Was going to put it on the back and the belly and see if the sealer changed the tuning, but while burnishing the belly I found some purfling that was even beyond my standards (it was gone!) so I had to replace it. I did the back though. A coat of gum, burnish, liquid resin, burnish, gum followed by resin, burnish, very thin coat of very dark homemade varnish. The first two coats almost seals it. The second coats I put heavier on the end grain. Before the varnish it is pretty much sealed, but not nearly as pretty. I liked doing it unassembled, easy to get the edges and corners that usually look....ahem, amateur. I only put it on the edges and bottom chamfer. I'll do the belly and then put the neck on. Would be nice to finally get something done. Ken
joerobson Posted May 2, 2011 Report Posted May 2, 2011 Joe, This series of violins also seem to be distinctly missing the yellow/golden base color or under tone - that is indicative of many attempts to copy a "Cremonese" style varnish. Yet - it works very well standing on its own merits. Are they an attempt simply to varnish as you see fit, or are they modeled after a particular maker or school? ct, The variations of [poor] photography and internet photos aside....................... Each of the instruments in this series had a varnish goal. The first was my attempt to hold on to a varnish impression I had of a Brescian viola I saw recently. It has a nice but not showy ground and a red component to the varnish which was the earliest [1582] example of this intense red I had seen. The violin plan already was for a highly antiqued and "worked-over" wood surface...flat back on the scroll etc..... The second is part of a [grail] search for this varnish transition that I like. I see it in some Strads and the best of it in Bergonzi's work....for me the Cramer Heath....this varnish will move from a brilliant complex orange to a brown orange without transitioning to red brown first. Yet in the upper C bouts or in it's most worn areas it can show a purple-ish tone. This varnish seems to make the depth of the ground pop out. The third [being polished] is based on the information from the Echard study. The "lack" of yellow you see in the wood color is intentional. When I see a good Italian varnish over a good ground I do not see the undertone as yellow. Perhaps some are more gold than others, but platinum is just as common. Really what I see is wood in all its complexity and the transitions of aging under the varnish that the particular instrument has lived through. It is true that part of the aging of the wood under the varnish is a photo-yellowing that is the result of mild degradation of the hemicelluose. However this detail [iMHO] is exaggerated by the poster and book photos we see of old instruments and then further exaggerated in the varnish process of many contemporary makers. Simply put I don't see yellow down under the good Italian varnish, so I don't do it. on we go, Joe the picture is a detail of the first violin...the antiqued one
Bernhard Ritschard Posted May 2, 2011 Report Posted May 2, 2011 Here's that Dodzuki saw that I mentioned that I love so much - it's quite beat up and over worked, but It still cuts through the maple without effort - straight and with very little kerf. Oh yes, your dozuki seems to have made a lot of miles.... I love japanese saws and use them a lot: The first one is the one from post #334, a ripcut temagori nokogiri , I use it for resawing snakewood logs and cello ribs. Number 2 and 4 are Ryoba's, The smaller one (240mm) I use for everything, including resawing violin ribs. The bigger one (300mm) is for roughing out the arching of one-piece backs: The small dozuki on the first picture works fine for bowmaking and violinscrolls.... I love your thread!
Jose Catoira Posted May 2, 2011 Report Posted May 2, 2011 Here is my go at the poplar, just finished the last coat of varnish, that is 4 coats of "as thin as I can apply" varnish. Just a little madder in the very first coat next to the wood. I wanted to get a light orange with a touch of brown in it... not sure I got it, though... Joe, this is what I meant in our] last conversation about "texture" I wanted to achieve.
joerobson Posted May 2, 2011 Report Posted May 2, 2011 Here is my go at the poplar, just finished the last coat of varnish, that is 4 coats of "as thin as I can apply" varnish. Just a little madder in the very first coat next to the wood. I wanted to get a light orange with a touch of brown in it... not sure I got it, though... Joe, this is what I meant in our] last conversation about "texture" I wanted to achieve. Jose, Can you send some smaller copies of these photos? It is hard to get an impression from large format pictures. thanks on we go, Joe
Jose Catoira Posted May 2, 2011 Report Posted May 2, 2011 Sorry, I didn't know they were going to be that large! How do I do that?
christian bayon Posted May 2, 2011 Report Posted May 2, 2011 trying some test shots on the recent varnish Nice!
Alberto R. Posted May 2, 2011 Report Posted May 2, 2011 Nice! Thank you Christian, nice compliment coming from you.
joerobson Posted May 2, 2011 Report Posted May 2, 2011 I think this is better, Joe. Cheerio!! Jose, Now I can see it! As you said, this varnish allows you great texture...very nice. Is the color all from this batch of varnish? My samples of your varnish dried and polished well but the color was more gold with a green/brown undertone. on we go, Joe
Addie Posted May 3, 2011 Report Posted May 3, 2011 I'm still curious about the yellow comment? It seems to (uneducated) me, that there are many factors, or complex histories if you like, that determine what we see today. Certainly oxidation of the wood itself, especially where exposed from wear, plus dirt that becomes incorporated into the surface, plus the fugitive nature of many of the colorants used historically. Dragon's blood is a well known example, and gamboge is the same, and madder isn't exceedingly UV resistant either. You say you don't see bright yellow on old instruments... is that because it was never there, or because it has changed? Thanks!
joerobson Posted May 3, 2011 Report Posted May 3, 2011 I'm still curious about the yellow comment? It seems to (uneducated) me, that there are many factors, or complex histories if you like, that determine what we see today. Certainly oxidation of the wood itself, especially where exposed from wear, plus dirt that becomes incorporated into the surface, plus the fugitive nature of many of the colorants used historically. Dragon's blood is a well known example, and gamboge is the same, and madder isn't exceedingly UV resistant either. You say you don't see bright yellow on old instruments... is that because it was never there, or because it has changed? Thanks! Addie, Agreed that there is a complex series of events both physical and chemical that result in the appearance of the old Italian varnish today. However a strong intentional [hand of the maker] yellow background is not something I see. I think the prevalence of this technique in contemporary making has a lot to do with the way a photo makes a violin look, rather than the way it actually looks. Though there is a photo-yellowing component to the aging of the wood under the varnish it is a complex color and not really yellow in appearance under the varnish. So in the sense of your question... it was never there. on we go, Joe
Don Noon Posted May 3, 2011 Report Posted May 3, 2011 On my bench is my outside mold, varnished with tabletop varnish to prevent glue accidents. I also have a box of a gazillion clothespins, modified to work properly with the clamping groove and linings. I'm working on an endblock radiusing fixture, and then I'll need cornerblock templates... seems like a never ending series of tasks that "I only need to do once". Hopefully it will end soon... or at least taper off.
Addie Posted May 3, 2011 Report Posted May 3, 2011 Addie, Agreed that there is a complex series of events both physical and chemical that result in the appearance of the old Italian varnish today. However a strong intentional [hand of the maker] yellow background is not something I see. I think the prevalence of this technique in contemporary making has a lot to do with the way a photo makes a violin look, rather than the way it actually looks. Though there is a photo-yellowing component to the aging of the wood under the varnish it is a complex color and not really yellow in appearance under the varnish. So in the sense of your question... it was never there. on we go, Joe Interesting. I suppose yellowing of the oil itself would add to the "golden" appearance. Back to the books for me! Thanks!
joerobson Posted May 3, 2011 Report Posted May 3, 2011 Interesting. I suppose yellowing of the oil itself would add to the "golden" appearance. Thanks! That is certainly part of the equation. Joe
Jose Catoira Posted May 3, 2011 Report Posted May 3, 2011 Jose, Now I can see it! As you said, this varnish allows you great texture...very nice. Is the color all from this batch of varnish? My samples of your varnish dried and polished well but the color was more gold with a green/brown undertone. on we go, Joe The colour is mainly from the varnish, the first coat had a little red madder lake, not enough to make it go red, but to turn that dominant green towards brown. The pink of the madder I got rid of with a pinch of asphalt. I have enough of that varnish to do at least 30 more instruments, I think I can afford doing various samples... can never cook small batches. This varnish making addiction is going to take to me to a bad place... Cheerio!! Jose
Piergiuseppe Posted May 3, 2011 Report Posted May 3, 2011 Carving a viola scroll. Be careful working so that you can also pierce the hand.
MANFIO Posted May 3, 2011 Report Posted May 3, 2011 Grazie Piergiuseppe! But here my left hand is out of the way of the escape area of the gouge. And the gouge here moves only 5 milimeters.
NewNewbie Posted May 3, 2011 Report Posted May 3, 2011 Grazie Piergiuseppe! But here my left hand is out of the way of the escape area of the gouge. And the gouge here moves only 5 milimeters. Since I don't see any scars on your hands, I will have to agree with you!
Craig Tucker Posted May 3, 2011 Author Report Posted May 3, 2011 I love your thread! Thanks, fun, isn't it? And I must admit that I love your saws - in particular, the big one (the ripcut temagori nokogiri) I have been imagining (fanaticizing really) everything I could do with it at my own bench... Thanks for posting the photos. I was impressed with the cello rib re-sawing, and I am equally impressed with the plate arch roughing out picture utilizing the temagori nokoigri. So, I will suppose that I misnamed my saw? I have probably been calling it a do-d-zuki saw for the last twenty years... (gulp!)
Craig Tucker Posted May 3, 2011 Author Report Posted May 3, 2011 Today I started my painting of a viola. Very clean work. I particularly like your scroll carving. Do you mind if I ask what you are using for a ground?
NewNewbie Posted May 3, 2011 Report Posted May 3, 2011 Thanks, fun, isn't it? This is indeed a fun thread, and no fighting or arguing, am I at the right forum????? 20 pages and still going strong! Perhaps we should start a new thread for every month?
christian bayon Posted May 3, 2011 Report Posted May 3, 2011 I love how you put in evidence the grain...congrats!also the color is unique...do you have other pictures? Yes, finally it´s ready: Like I said in a varnish thickness topic, I live it very thick for have it right after one year.
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