through the heart viola

[joerobson]

A client of mine is doing his second "through the heart" viola. He drills a hole under the first string and has the sound post from the bridge to the back under the string.

Has anyone done this? Heard of it? Have the background research? I believe the research was done by a couple of Finnish physicists, but I could be wrong.

Thanks,

Joe

[DonLeister]

The Strad did an article about it, that might answer your question. I wish I could tell you which issue it was though! I'm guessing about 5 years ago.

[Jose Catoira]

Hello Joe,

The Through-post procedure is not an uncommon thing to see around where I am.

A lot of people thought it was the greatest idea a few years back...

You'll cut the top end of the frecuencies, i.e. the trebles so "it works" great if you are converting a small size fiddle into a "viola"

My opinion? I wouldn't do it on anything with any value... think reversibility, once the hole is there, you can't put the wood back on. Well, you can do a through patch, and then things get expensive.

Just my personal view in the matter.

[Joseph Liu]

I am not sure what you guys are talking about. Does anyone have a illustration?

[Brad Dorsey]

I am not sure what you guys are talking about....

A hole is drilled through the top under the treble bridge foot. The soundpost runs from the back through the hole in the top to the underside of the bridge foot.

[Bernhard Ritschard]

This reminds me of the medieval crwth....

And of the collaboration between the antroposoph Rudolf Steiner and Dr. Thomastik in the beginning of the 20th century, which resulted in a similar bridge-soundpost system. Many of these instruments have been built by a maker in Nürnberg... Weidler is his name, if my memories are correct.

[go_oa]

As the proud possessor of one of the violas that Stradivarius made

while in Romania in 1960, I decided to try the 'Hole in the Heart'.

It worked pretty well. The viola improved a lot when I thinned

the plates, and the 'Hole in the Heart' helped some more. Also

my luthier's opening the bridge. The idea is that instead of

locking a node into the top plate at the bridge, you free

the top to have new and different modes, hoping that you will

get better bass response. The poor thing has an open seam right now,

so I have not played it recently.

[go_oa]

As the proud possessor of one of the violas that Stradivarius made

while in Romania in 1960, I decided to try the 'Hole in the Heart'.

It worked pretty well. The viola improved a lot when I thinned

the plates, and the 'Hole in the Heart' helped some more. Also

my luthier's opening the bridge. The idea is that instead of

locking a node into the top plate at the bridge, you free

the top to have new and different modes, hoping that you will

get better bass response. The poor thing has an open seam right now,

so I have not played it recently.

I got the picture attached!

[Don Noon]

I did one of these conversions on a cheapo fiddle. Read about it here.

[Joseph Liu]

Thank you Brad and go-oa. I have seen a few pictures but haven't seen an actual instrument done this way.

[joerobson]

Hello Joe,

The Through-post procedure is not an uncommon thing to see around where I am.

A lot of people thought it was the greatest idea a few years back...

You'll cut the top end of the frecuencies, i.e. the trebles so "it works" great if you are converting a small size fiddle into a "viola"

My opinion? I wouldn't do it on anything with any value... think reversibility, once the hole is there, you can't put the wood back on. Well, you can do a through patch, and then things get expensive.

Just my personal view in the matter.

Jose,

For physical reasons, my client needs a small viola, but his primary motivation is a viola that has strong response across all strings and especially at the high end. Any feed back from the instruments you have heard?

Joe

[fiddlesurgeon]

This reminds me of the medieval crwth....

And of the collaboration between the antroposoph Rudolf Steiner and Dr. Thomastik in the beginning of the 20th century, which resulted in a similar bridge-soundpost system. Many of these instruments have been built by a maker in Nürnberg... Weidler is his name, if my memories are correct.

Finally, an example of the phonics rule for vowels: a e i o u and sometimes y and sometimes w

[John (london)]

Bernhard Ritschard, Thomastik instruments (including a crwth, which they called "crotta", for less money) were still being made and sold in the 1980s. They had a hole on top through which the soundpost came. One foot of the bridge rested directly on that soundpost which connected to a bottom "S"-shaped bass bar, and the other foot rested on the top, which also had a "S"-shaped bass bar. The wood was soaked in body temperature water for 48 hours before carving. The same wood was used thoughout the instrument (maple or cherry, for 1st or 2nd violins respectively, silver birch ( think) for violas, and mountain ash for cellos - Dieter (a Rudolph Steiner organisation representative who had contacted my father, but needed to be in London, so he stayed with me. Unusually for a German, he had very little English, but I took him to a Swiss Brotherhood Church in Highbury so he heard the Gospel at least once in his life) said nothing to me about double basses.
I was played a recording of Bach S & Ps played on one. The instrument sounded quite responsive, but there was something about the tone I just didn't like.

Edited September 7, 2020 by John (london)

[Oscar Stern]

The principle behind this instrument (as developed by Heikki Puukko and Pentii Nevalainen) is kinda based on the Crwth which is a Welsh bowed Lyre. You can see right away that the Bass bridge foot goes inside the Bass soundhole & rests on the back.

[Oscar Stern]

On 2/10/2011 at 12:27 PM, DonLeister said:

The Strad did an article about it, that might answer your question. I wish I could tell you which issue it was though! I'm guessing about 5 years ago.

I'm trying to find it but I can't see the link

[Marty Kasprzyk]

On 2/11/2011 at 9:37 PM, joerobson said:

Jose,

For physical reasons, my client needs a small viola, but his primary motivation is a viola that has strong response across all strings and especially at the high end. Any feed back from the instruments you have heard?

Joe

Way back then I thought this was an interesting problem.

The first instrument I made was a Carleen Hutchins Alto vertical 21 inch viola and I loved its deep sound but viola players were unwilling to switch to this cello style playing so I started making large violas (~17  in.) to be played under the chin.  But repetitive stress injuries are a big problem for viola players so I tried to make these large violas as light as possible.  However their long left arm reach was still a problem so recently I've been trying to make small very light violas that sound like large ones (difficult to do) like your client might have wanted long ago.

One of the helpful things I'm using is the "hole in the heart" design where my treble bridge foot rests  directly on the sound post through a hole in the top plate like the ancient Welsh Crwth mentioned earlier.  I use a rectangular sound post which is glued to the back plate (see attached photo) to make things easy. After about three dozen evolutions the present violas (14 in.) have about the same length as a violin (356mm) yet they still have low AO frequencies (~240 Hz) and I think they sound very good.

But the recent Covid mess has prevented me from getting much direct feed-back from many good players. The Zoom type of replacement interactions aren't helpful but mental health therapists find them convenient. 

 

 

[FiddleDoug]

On 2/11/2011 at 9:37 PM, joerobson said:

Jose,

For physical reasons, my client needs a small viola, but his primary motivation is a viola that has strong response across all strings and especially at the high end. Any feed back from the instruments you have heard?

Joe

That has been around for quite a few years. I've mostly heard of it in the context of converting a violin into a small viola.

[Don Noon]

59 minutes ago, FiddleDoug said:

I've mostly heard of it in the context of converting a violin into a small viola.

Or a small viola into a bigger viola.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

12 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Way back then I thought this was an interesting problem.

The first instrument I made was a Carleen Hutchins Alto vertical 21 inch viola and I loved its deep sound but viola players were unwilling to switch to this cello style playing so I started making large violas (~17  in.) to be played under the chin.  But repetitive stress injuries are a big problem for viola players so I tried to make these large violas as light as possible.  However their long left arm reach was still a problem so recently I've been trying to make small very light violas that sound like large ones (difficult to do) like your client might have wanted long ago.

One of the helpful things I'm using is the "hole in the heart" design where my treble bridge foot rests  directly on the sound post through a hole in the top plate like the ancient Welsh Crwth mentioned earlier.  I use a rectangular sound post which is glued to the back plate (see attached photo) to make things easy. After about three dozen evolutions the present violas (14 in.) have about the same length as a violin (356mm) yet they still have low AO frequencies (~240 Hz) and I think they sound very good.

But the recent Covid mess has prevented me from getting much direct feed-back from many good players. The Zoom type of replacement interactions aren't helpful but mental health therapists find them convenient. 

 

 

I make my violins this way too.  Actually they're just my small violas with violin GDAE strings on them.

 I've also made 5 string violas which are just these small violas with added violin E strings or, if you follow current transgender news, my violins with added viola C strings.

One advantage/disadvantage of my instruments set up as violins is that they have strong lower notes on the G string whereas  traditional violins are weak there.  Some players like them while others don't.

After having done many blind tests Claudia Fritz said: "You can't please everybody so you might as well please yourself."

[Don Noon]

49 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

After having done many blind tests Claudia Fritz said: "You can't please everybody so you might as well please yourself."

Unless you want to sell stuff.

[Oscar Stern]

14 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

Way back then I thought this was an interesting problem.

The first instrument I made was a Carleen Hutchins Alto vertical 21 inch viola and I loved its deep sound but viola players were unwilling to switch to this cello style playing so I started making large violas (~17  in.) to be played under the chin.  But repetitive stress injuries are a big problem for viola players so I tried to make these large violas as light as possible.  However their long left arm reach was still a problem so recently I've been trying to make small very light violas that sound like large ones (difficult to do) like your client might have wanted long ago.

One of the helpful things I'm using is the "hole in the heart" design where my treble bridge foot rests  directly on the sound post through a hole in the top plate like the ancient Welsh Crwth mentioned earlier.  I use a rectangular sound post which is glued to the back plate (see attached photo) to make things easy. After about three dozen evolutions the present violas (14 in.) have about the same length as a violin (356mm) yet they still have low AO frequencies (~240 Hz) and I think they sound very good.

But the recent Covid mess has prevented me from getting much direct feed-back from many good players. The Zoom type of replacement interactions aren't helpful but mental health therapists find them convenient. 

 

 

Usually playing the larger sized violas vertically like a Cello would relieve weight off the shoulders & they really need to make a method book to help w/ it:

 

[Oscar Stern]

OK so here's what the front of a Stringer's Viola conversion looks like if we get it angled this way. you see that the bridge is directly connected to the soundpost, it goes through the hole & rests on the back plate very akin to a Welsh Crwth. Heikki Puukko and Pentii Nevalainen from Finland in fact got that idea of a Hole in the Heart Viola from the Welsh Crwth.

[Marty Kasprzyk]

One advantage of the Crwth design is that it obviously reduces the string's downward force on the top by half which will reduce long term creep deformation of the top.  It will also eliminate sound post cracks in the top. 

[Marty Kasprzyk]

3 hours ago, Don Noon said:

Unless you want to sell stuff.

If you do a Google search on "viola player injuries" you will get about 15 million hits.

I think there is a good market for small and light violas that sound like big ones.

[Oscar Stern]

On 3/30/2023 at 2:31 PM, Marty Kasprzyk said:

One advantage of the Crwth design is that it obviously reduces the string's downward force on the top by half which will reduce long term creep deformation of the top.  It will also eliminate sound post cracks in the top. 

I think for the Viola Conversion or Hole in heart violin (no matter how it's strung even if it's strung as a Standard Violin which you can still do), the top will last longer, those soundpost cracks are gone, & things will be better.