is this an original church bass?

[baroquecello]

Hi everyone! I came across this at Ebay. What is your opinion, is ths an original 19th or 18th century church bass? And, if so, do you think it is worth restoring?

I always like these rustical versions of my instrument and would actually enjoy having one for fun, I think.

[Magnus Nedregard]

Haha, It's quite cool! It is not worth the money to take it to a restorer (unless you desperately try to get rid of money) but if you restore things yourself I would say it should be well within the limits of "fun" and "possible" work! My guess would be about 1780-1800

[James M. Jones]

reminds me of an old man/ where is he from?

[Richf]

That's bigger than the church basses I've seen, which tend to be closer to cello size. I've shown my own church bass (which has greater restoration potential than this one, IMHO) to a couple luthier who, while they did not run away, did change the subject quickly. To me the interesting thing about this is the fingerboard, with all those inlay pieces. I wonder if it originally was fretted? If fretted might that make it some other kind of baroque instrument. Also, I love those old American scrolls. They are so distinctive.

[Brad Dorsey]

....is ths [sic] an original 19th or 18th century church bass?....

Definitely yes.

....do you think it is worth restoring?...

Perhaps it would be worth it for fun, but definitely not worth it financially. Because church basses were built to non-standard dimensions, they can't be used as cellos so no one plays them today that I've ever heard of. Therefore there is no player market for them. Also, they are fragile, and they take up a lot of space, so there is almost no collector market for them either. Because of all this, they have almost no commercial value. Good examples by well-known makers like Prescott come up at instrument auctions occasionally where they bring less than $1000.

[Geoff-UK]

Nice that the seller provided some really good pics. Not a pretty sight. It might have a market for any vertically challenged jazz bass players

I've have one crack to do in a bass and I'm putting that off on a daily basis.

Geoff

[Joseph Liu]

Very interesting looking instrument and very ugly at the same time.

[Brad Dorsey]

Very interesting looking instrument and very ugly at the same time.

That's a good description of church basses in general.

[GlennYorkPA]

Hi everyone! I came across this at Ebay. What is your opinion, is ths an original 19th or 18th century church bass? And, if so, do you think it is worth restoring?

I always like these rustical versions of my instrument and would actually enjoy having one for fun, I think.

It's a pity it's a bit of an ugly duckling because, like it or not, it's a part of this country's national heritage with many idiosyncratic features.

The head and scroll suggest that the maker was working from a distant memory of something he had seen in/from Europe.

Glenn

[Brad Dorsey]

It's a pity it's a bit of an ugly duckling because, like it or not, it's a part of this country's national heritage with many idiosyncratic features.

The head and scroll suggest that the maker was working from a distant memory of something he had seen in/from Europe.

Glenn

According to Darcy Kuronen, curator of musical instruments at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston, the abrupt beginning of the fluting in the outside of the pegbox wall near the volute is a common feature of early New England violins and church basses, as is the pointed F hole wings, the short fingerboard, the multi-piece plates made of slab-cut wood, the lack of real purfling and the insertion of the upper ribs into slots in the sides of the neck foot.

Other common features that may be present in this instrument though they are not visible in these pictures include ribs set into grooves in the plates, very thin or absent corner blocks, no linings or linings made from very short sections of wood, steeply angled bass bars, F hole wings connected with the upper and lower curves and geared metal tuners on basses and church basses after the 1820s. (The last two features are obviously not present in this instrument.)

[Bruce Carlson]

According to Darcy Kuronen, curator of musical instruments at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston, the abrupt beginning of the fluting in the outside of the pegbox wall near the volute is a common feature of early New England violins and church basses, as is the pointed F hole wings, the short fingerboard, the multi-piece plates made of slab-cut wood, the lack of real purfling and the insertion of the upper ribs into slots in the sides of the neck foot.

Other common features that may be present in this instrument though they are not visible in these pictures include ribs set into grooves in the plates, very thin or absent corner blocks, no linings or linings made from very short sections of wood, steeply angled bass bars, F hole wings connected with the upper and lower curves and geared metal tuners on basses and church basses after the 1820s. (The last two features are obviously not present in this instrument.)

Hi Brad,

You probably already know that you are also describing the same characteristics as those found in the German school made around the Black Forest and in Switzerland in the late 1600's and early 1700's? Details such as the ribs let into the back, f-wings connected above and below, the sharp cut-away on the scroll above the pegbox, decorative and sometime double row purfling etc. See Olga Adelmann's book on these instruments.

EDIT: Below are a couple of photographs.

1.) Copy by Olga Adelmann of a Diskantgeige made by Hans Krouchdaler in Oberbalm bei Bern showing some internal construction details.

2.) Bassgeige by Franz Straub - Black Forest (Schwartzwald) - 1684

Bruce

[Nicolas Temino]

1,303.64 USD for shipping? Definetely won't bid.

[lyndon]

I think the real value of this instrument is to leave it unrestored and put it in a museum, I have an unrestored 1786 British square piano, and any increase in value from restoring it would be more than offset by the greater cost of the restoration, what youve got here is a really old collectors item, that is really not worth the cost of the repairs, but still has a real unrestored value in a museum, even the NMM might be interested, also consider the possibility that it might be European and older than American church basses, that fingerboard is original and really short for 1800 or later IMO

[Richf]

Many thanks for those pics, Bruce. I hadn't realized that the "ridge" down the center of the top plate (can't exactly call it a bass bar, can we) was a common feature of New England church basses or instruments from any other region. Here's the top plate of my 1814 church bass. But note the additional integral "bass" bar, cut on the diagonal. Ever seen that? I have a baroque violin w/ an integral bass bar that also is slightly on the diagonal, but at least stays to the bass side of the fiddle. I always wondered if this feature wasn't an early inspiration for Martin's invention of X-bracing in guitars. (He came from a Saxon violinmaking family.)

Richard

[Bruce Carlson]

Many thanks for those pics, Bruce. I hadn't realized that the "ridge" down the center of the top plate (can't exactly call it a bass bar, can we) was a common feature of New England church basses or instruments from any other region. Here's the top plate of my 1814 church bass. But note the additional integral "bass" bar, cut on the diagonal. Ever seen that? I have a baroque violin w/ an integral bass bar that also is slightly on the diagonal, but at least stays to the bass side of the fiddle. I always wondered if this feature wasn't an early inspiration for Martin's invention of X-bracing in guitars. (He came from a Saxon violinmaking family.)

Richard

Hi Richard,

Is the "bass" bar in your 1814 church bass a part of the belly or was the original central bar cut away to make room for that one? That would make the diagonal bar a later repair.

Is the head something like below?

Bruce

[Richf]

No, Bruce, both the center ridge and the bass bar are integral to the top plate. I guess that means they had to be carved at the same time. The scroll on mine is more similar to the ebay bass under discussion here, with very tight little volutes (photo 1). The Straub head you show looks more like the inspiration for Abraham Prescott's work (photo 2), as described by Kuronen. F. Straub is circa 1700, right?

Previously I was inclined to agree with Glenn, that the early American makers were working from distant memories or pictures -- displaying Yankee ingenuity. Perhaps it is more likely that they were indeed trained, but were carrying on a tradition that had already died out in Europe.

Richard

[Bruce Carlson]

No, Bruce, both the center ridge and the bass bar are integral to the top plate. I guess that means they had to be carved at the same time. The scroll on mine is more similar to the ebay bass under discussion here, with very tight little volutes (photo 1). The Straub head you show looks more like the inspiration for Abraham Prescott's work (photo 2), as described by Kuronen. F. Straub is circa 1700, right?

Previously I was inclined to agree with Glenn, that the early American makers were working from distant memories or pictures -- displaying Yankee ingenuity. Perhaps it is more likely that they were indeed trained, but were carrying on a tradition that had already died out in Europe.

Richard

Yes, the Straub is circa 1700.

Bruce

[Richf]

And here's a photo of that baroque violin w/ the integral bass bar cut slightly on the diagonal (before restoration by MNetter Reese Williams). BTW, the bass projection on the completed instruments was great.

[Bruce Carlson]

And here's a photo of that baroque violin w/ the integral bass bar cut slightly on the diagonal (before restoration by MNetter Reese Williams). BTW, the bass projection on the completed instruments was great.

Richard,

Here's a shot of the inside of a belly with an integral bassbar currently in the collection of the Accademia di Santa Cecilia in Rome. The instrument is labelled Francesco Framonti and is described as a (contra)bassetto.

EDIT: This bassetto is thought to be very old. Much older than the one on the right attributed to Adam Kirner or Joseph Meyer illustrated in Adelmann's book.

Bruce

[Richf]

I thought I had something special with my diagonal bar, but you've definitely one-upped me with that curved one. So, it's not the case that these center ridges and diagonal bars are a purely Germanic (or Swiss) feature, since there it is on an old Italian, too. Very very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[Bruce Carlson]

I thought I had something special with my diagonal bar, but you've definitely one-upped me with that curved one. So, it's not the case that these center ridges and diagonal bars are a purely Germanic (or Swiss) feature, since there it is on an old Italian, too. Very very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Richard,

I'm not trying to one-up anyone. When I saw the old basses in Olga Adelmann's book I began to think about the real origin of the other bass with the curved bar. I haven't been to the Accademia in Rome since it has been on display but once I get a look at the rest of the bass it might be easier to make a definitive comment. Even the Italian bass has the rib channels like the German/Swiss school..... I really don't like to take anything for granted.

The dark area running around the border of the (contra)bassetto is linen reinforcement that was put there by the last restorer not too many years ago.

Bruce

[baroquecello]

Thanx everyone for the huge amount of interesting answers! I had actually thought that the instrument may be interesting, in restored state, to be used as an instrument like the one on the picture Bruce provided, for playing relatively simple bass lines in first half of the 17th century music, probably tuned like a basse de violon, (which is one step down from the cello in a=415 or 395 or so). I think quite some more artistic examples are present in some collections of musical instruments owned by museums, so a respectful restoration for the instrument in question would, I think, not be something that is out of the question, given that many examples are preserved without being used anyway. I think the usage as basse de violon could give many of this type of instruments a second productive life without damaging the original substance at all.

[Richf]

Bruce. I need to remember to put in those smiley faces to properly convey a light-hearted response. Those photos blew me away. I'm looking for a copy of that Adelmann book now (and dusting off my German). And I hope to you will bring this topic up again if you do get to Rome to look at those old cellos (basses).

Baroquecello, your observation about using these instruments "for playing relatively simple bass lines" is an interesting one. From what I have read, that's exactly how the American church basses were used -- to help keep the church singers in tune and on beat -- until low-cost organs arrived and took over that job.

Richard

[lyndon]

611usd good price im suprised the free advertising on maestronet didnt make the price go higher, a real piece of history,

[Brad Dorsey]

....im [sic] suprised the free advertising on maestronet didnt [sic] make the price go higher...

And I'm surprised that the price was this high. As I said in post #5, "they have almost no commercial value."