Question for Oded

[Oded Kishony]

Gabi,

What I meant was that I would thin a particular area, play the instrument and get the desired result, then thin some more hoping for more of the same effect. The positive effect would be lost (reversed). At this point I stop and look for another way to get where I'm going.

OK

[Roger Hill]

at the risk of stirring up a propolis factory, it seems to me that Oded and Jack Fry are saying the precise same thing: very small changes in thickness at specific places can have dramatic effects on the timbre of the instrument. Fry adjusts his violins by scraping on the inside, Oded on the outside. The actual arch shape is the mid-curve between the inside and outside curves. For tiny adjustments it really shouldn't matter much which side you scrape to get the vibration you want. Oded locates his points to scrape through string reciprocity. Fry relies on his ear, experience, and knowledge of where to scrape HIS violins to affect particular frequency areas. I emphasize HIS violins because, to the best of my knowledge, Fry has settled on one particular Strad graduation scheme which he understands well and then adjusts to get a good sounding instrument. Note that Fry starts with an old violin and is stuck with its arching, wood, varnish, etc. He ends up with different schemes in a finished violin as dictated by what he starts with. We certainly see wide excursions in the graduation schemes depicted by Jeff Loen. With all due respect to Michael Darnton's differing opinion, it seems to me that the asymmetric graduation patterns of the Cremonese tops must be the result of a tuning scheme.

[Andres Sender]

Roger, it’s worth pointing out that the asymmetry aspect is irrelevant in the sense that even if there was tuning, the asymmetry is a random byproduct. If I remember right, in past discussions of Fry it sounded like asymmetry was a goal or explanation as such.

Then as far as the “sloppy graduations”, I would say that absent further evidence, Michael’s idea that the old makers were not concerned with modern levels of precision is not undercut by the specific instances Oded has found where external marks seem to correspond to thinned areas. For that to happen one would have to find that on the whole thinner areas tend to correspond with evidence of external material removal.

[Melvin Goldsmith]

QUOTE Roger Hill 'With all due respect to Michael Darnton's differing opinion, it seems to me that the asymmetric graduation patterns of the Cremonese tops must be the result of a tuning scheme'

......

A tuning system by the original makers?......Many of the great Old Cremonese concert violins, and probably most del Gesu, have been regradated but still work extraordinarily well.

[Salve Håkedal]

A tuning system by the original makers?......Many of the great Old Cremonese concert violins, and probably most del Gesu, have been regradated but still work extraordinarily well.

I have the same objection, but a system like that might explain why a thick (unthinned) del Gesu like the Cannon can have a good sound?

[Roger Hill]

Roger, it’s worth pointing out that the asymmetry aspect is irrelevant in the sense that even if there was tuning, the asymmetry is a random byproduct. If I remember right, in past discussions of Fry it sounded like asymmetry was a goal or explanation as such.

I partially agree, Andres. There are several features that seem to be really important to Fry: a thicker area just below the upper block which is used to communicate hi frequencies to the bass bar and a thick area above the treble ff hole which is used to communicate even higher frequencies to the lower treble ff hole wing. The asymmetry he advocates in the back seems to me to enhance the low frequency "breathing modes" by having the back have its entire area moving in the same direction even while driven at an asymmetric point.

Then as far as the “sloppy graduations”, I would say that absent further evidence, Michael’s idea that the old makers were not concerned with modern levels of precision is not undercut by the specific instances Oded has found where external marks seem to correspond to thinned areas. For that to happen one would have to find that on the whole thinner areas tend to correspond with evidence of external material removal.

I still find the precision we see in back bullseye patterns to be strong evidence that they could carve to any level of precision they desired. Did they always desire to get a very precise initial pattern? I don't think so .....I think they intended that later tuning of the top would be used to bring the instrument to the sound quality desired. my own opinion is that they had excellent ears and knew just where to scrape to get what they wanted. I also suspect, that just as Oded describes, at times they overshot and had to re-scrape other areas to bring the whole thing into balance. Kinda' like cutting off the legs of chairs to get it level........process doesn't always converge.

[Roger Hill]

QUOTE Roger Hill 'With all due respect to Michael Darnton's differing opinion, it seems to me that the asymmetric graduation patterns of the Cremonese tops must be the result of a tuning scheme'

......

A tuning system by the original makers?......Many of the great Old Cremonese concert violins, and probably most del Gesu, have been regradated but still work extraordinarily well.

Good point, Melvin. Fry concentrates on Strads, which I believe have not been re-graduated to the same extent as the del Gesus. Now, if Cozio handed you a violin and told you to thin the plates, would the thinning be more or less uniform? which would tend to leave a tuning scheme in place? You tell me, I've never done it.

[Oded Kishony]

Hi Melvin

have been regradated but still work extraordinarily well.

If the final voicing of the violin was done on the outside the arching would be affected, then even if the violin were regraduated the effect of the arching changes would still be intact. Of course we don't know if the instrument actually sounded better before the regraduation. Most likely it was easier to play after thinning.

Oded

[Salve Håkedal]

If the final voicing of the violin was done on the outside the arching would be affected, then even if the violin were regraduated the effect of the arching changes would still be intact.

..

Would that mean that the correction made by del Gesu was mostly related to the arching? If so, a later regraduation of the plates would maybe not have to be very uniform to preserve his "voicing".

If his corrections were mostly related to thicknesses, I would think that a slightly un-uniform regraduating would disturb del Gesus "voicing" rather much?

[Melvin Goldsmith]

Hi Oded

I should make it clear that I am a big fan of your string reciprocity observations and would not want any thoughts I throw into the mix to take away from how cool I think what you have said re string reciprocity is.

My feelings re the regradation of del Gesu violins is that the regradation was not done because the violins did not work but because Strad was by far the more respected maker at the time and the del Gesu violins were misguidedly regradated more to Strad dimensions. I don't think that del Gesu violins were regradated because they sounded bad but because it was felt at the time that they could become even better from being more like Strads...so the regradation of del Gesu violins need not be a disproving of your ideas at all.

[Oded Kishony]

Salve wrote:

Would that mean that the correction made by del Gesu was mostly related to the arching? If so, a later regraduation of the plates would maybe not have to be very uniform to preserve his "voicing".

If his corrections were mostly related to thicknesses, I would think that a slightly un-uniform regraduating would disturb del Gesus "voicing" rather much?

Doesn't matter what DGs intentions were, as soon as wood was removed from the outside the arching was changed and no matter what was done to the inside the arching changes remained the same.

[Oded Kishony]

Melvin writes:

I should make it clear that I am a big fan of your string reciprocity observations

Thank you,I'm flattered.

I don't think that del Gesu violins were regradated because they sounded bad but because it was felt at the time that they could become even better from being more like Strads..

That's an interesting perspective, I hadn't considered it before.

Oded