robertdo Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 When I completed the top of my current violin I was a little bit annoyed by few nasty marks, like scars. Luckily the largest one was to be hidden by the fingerboard. But today, reading the topic on bosnian maple I realised these marks are probably bear claws marks. Edit. I reduced the size. I should be ok now. Yes the marks look the same but at least in the picture you posted the marks form a nice regular pattern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Carlson Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 When I completed the top of my current violin I was a little bit annoyed by few nasty marks, like scars. Luckily the largest one was to be hidden by the fingerboard. But today, reading the topic on bosnian maple I realised these marks are probably bear claws marks. Hi Robertdo, Could you post a reduced size photograph? It takes ages to download. That's what it is. Here's some on an old Italian fiddle. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennYorkPA Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 When I completed the top of my current violin I was a little bit annoyed by few nasty marks, like scars. Luckily the largest one was to be hidden by the fingerboard. But today, reading the topic on bosnian maple I realised these marks are probably bear claws marks. Edit. I reduced the size. I should be ok now. Yes the marks look the same but at least in the picture you posted the marks form a nice regular pattern Hi Robertdo, Your example is not quite as as charming as Bruce's but it could have the same origin. Sometimes called hazel fichte, it is not usually considered a defect but more a cosmetic beauty spot on an otherwise uninteresting piece of spruce. I doubt that any bear ever used your piece as a scratching post. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Carlson Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 Hi Robertdo, Your example is not quite as as charming as Bruce's but it could have the same origin. Sometimes called hazel fichte, it is not usually considered a defect but more a cosmetic beauty spot on an otherwise uninteresting piece of spruce. I doubt that any bear ever used your piece as a scratching post. Glenn Das Haselfichte is the German name, whereas the Italians call it "maschiatura" or "indentatura". This is the most common type of spruce used in violinmaking in Europe (Picea abies). It is similar to the marks you see on Sitka spruce in North America. It can be a problem when you are trying to shape your arching but it is beautiful under the varnish; if there's not too much of it. You see it on many of the old makers instruments. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerobson Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 Das Haselfichte is the German name, whereas the Italians call it "maschiatura" or "indentatura". This is the most common type of spruce used in violinmaking in Europe (Picea abies). It is similar to the marks you see on Sitka spruce in North America. It can be a problem when you are trying to shape your arching but it is beautiful under the varnish; if there's not too much of it. You see it on many of the old makers instruments. Bruce Bear claw under varnish. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerobson Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 Das Haselfichte is the German name, whereas the Italians call it "maschiatura" or "indentatura". This is the most common type of spruce used in violinmaking in Europe (Picea abies). It is similar to the marks you see on Sitka spruce in North America. It can be a problem when you are trying to shape your arching but it is beautiful under the varnish; if there's not too much of it. You see it on many of the old makers instruments. Bruce Bear claw under varnish. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertdo Posted October 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 Hi Robertdo, Your example is not quite as as charming as Bruce's but it could have the same origin. Sometimes called hazel fichte, it is not usually considered a defect but more a cosmetic beauty spot on an otherwise uninteresting piece of spruce. I doubt that any bear ever used your piece as a scratching post. Glenn I'll check just in case a grizzly is hiding in my kichen... and I will tell him no to do that again I would say these marks could be transposon induced, a very funny phenomenon in genetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertdo Posted October 26, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 Bear claw under varnish. Joe Indeed it's lovely, like shooting stars crossing the belly of a violin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Carlson Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 I'll check just in case a grizzly is hiding in my kichen... and I will tell him no to do that again I would say these marks could be transposon induced, a very funny phenomenon in genetic. When you remove the bark from one of these trees you can see it as little irregular grooves or channels. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfjk Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 I'll check just in case a grizzly is hiding in my kichen... and I will tell him no to do that again I would say these marks could be transposon induced, a very funny phenomenon in genetic. Hi Robertdo, Unfortunately grizzlys don't live in Eropean forrests, so the marks on your violinare more likely to be caused by a knot near the marks. There is a bit of tension/compression wood showing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_Molnar Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 When you remove the bark from one of these trees you can see it as little irregular grooves or channels. Bruce Do you think it is caused by an insect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANFIO Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 Yes robertdo, it is bear claw figure (maschiatura in Italian), found in many old Italian violins, considered by many to be the best type of wood for tops. The figure makes working with the scraper more difficult, and this type of wood may be irregular in terms of porosity when varnished, in my experience. I love it too, here the top of one of my violas: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janito Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 In all the examples shown so far the 'mark' travels across the grain. In the first post, it takes some weird turns, and it appears to almost travel in parts along the grain direction. So, not so clear to me that it is bearclaw. I am with Magic Molnar - insect effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANFIO Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 The marks may vary, they may appear with oval shapes too. Sometimes you see lots of bear claw figure while carving the spruce but, eventually, when the shaping of the top is finished, you can't see none!!! Sometimes you can see it just in the inside of the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbouts Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Holding a top plate to a strong light you will see increased density with bearclaw as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joerobson Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Holding a top plate to a strong light you will see increased density with bearclaw as well. Andrew, The bear claw is harder itself, but softer on the edges. With some coloration methods you need to take care. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Carlson Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 The marks may vary, they may appear with oval shapes too. Sometimes you see lots of bear claw figure while carving the spruce but, eventually, when the shaping of the top is finished, you can't see none!!! Sometimes you can see it just in the inside of the table. Hi Manfio, Here's an oval one on a Stradivari cello. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Carlson Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Do you think it is caused by an insect? Hi Michael, I don't think it is caused by insects but it is not always there in Picea abies. I think it is characteristic to Sitka as well. I'll be talking to someone today who would know, but it can be seen in the cambium layer under the bark. Here is what the wood looks like just under the bark. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANFIO Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Yes Bruce, that's it! Thanks for sharing your magnificent photos!!! You could make a photo gallery in your website with photos of these details, I think we would get crazy about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Noon Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 There isn't enough resolution in the original post photo to really be sure (I missed the first oversize photo before the resolution was reduced)... but something looks un-bearish to my eye. Bear claw is a ripple in the grain, as can be easily seen in all of the other examples. I can't see any ripple in the first photo, even with messing around with contrast and color. It just looks like a dark track of some sort. I suppose it could be a very odd, very tight ripple. Higher resolution photo?? (cropped to only the area of interest) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertdo Posted October 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 There isn't enough resolution in the original post photo to really be sure... but something looks un-bearish to my eye. Bear claw is a ripple in the grain, as can be easily seen in all of the other examples. I can't see any ripple in the first photo, even with messing around with contrast and color. It just looks like a dark track of some sort. I suppose it could be a very odd, very tight ripple. Higher resolution photo?? I will try to post a better picture if I can download it, when I get back home. It's not dark, simply it changes colour with the lightning angle, a little bit like the flame of maple. I first thought I was carving H. Potter's wand because of the shape of the mark.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Noon Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 It's not dark, simply it changes colour with the lightning angle, a little bit like the flame of maple. That definitely argues for grain ripple, and => bearclaw. I just couldn't see it in the photo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iburkard Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 You could make a photo gallery in your website with photos of these details, I think we would get crazy about it! I like it when Bruce comes up with great photos as topics arise. I'd hate to rip the heart out of his collection by having it all online at once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddlecollector Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Bearclaw marks are just caused by a genetic growth anomaly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennYorkPA Posted October 28, 2010 Report Share Posted October 28, 2010 Bearclaw marks are just caused by a genetic growth anomaly. Same cause as the flame in maple. An unpredictable gift of nature. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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