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paolojacm

Giuseppe Rocca and Guarneri Alard measurements?

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Hello,

I've just bought the portfolio-book about Giuseppe Rocca (Joseph Rocca) 1844 and 1849 violin, by J. Kass.

Photos are perfetc but there are no measurements about the 1849 model, so I just could project the internal shape, scroll and FF :)

Can you help me to find thicknesses and other measurements about this violin (maybe on Eric Blot piedmontese volume?), or just about GUARNERI Alard 1742 (Model who inspired Rocca)?

Thestrad doesn't sell them, I did't find it anywhere on the net.

Thanks

pjm

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It seems that the Alard Strad poster is sold out.... Yes, I think there are photos of Rocca's Alard inspired violin in Eric Blot's book, but Rocca's instruments are not exact copies, they are more "inspired by", and that is why they are gorgeus!

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1845-50 violin:

Back length= 354mm, bouts = 208,112.3,169.

Ribs-bottom=30.8, top=29.3mm

head of scroll= 39.4mm wide.

f holes 44mm apart at upper eyes.

body stop=195mm

185x ? violin:

Back length= 353mm, bouts = 208.5,113,168.5mm.

Ribs-bottom=31.2, top=30.9 mm

head of scroll= 40.4mm wide.

f holes 43.5mm apart at upper eyes.

body stop=193mm

F holes are a mirror image of the left side `f` hole of the Alard Guarneri. i.e symmetrical

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Yes Manfio, I'm in love with Rocca (and piedmontese) violins, hope to find all the infos I need to construct these instruments :)

I know they are just inspired from GdG and Stradivari, but I think I also need to study GdG Alard.

Thank you fiddlercollector for these measures, it's a starting point for me.

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A friend recently gave me his Alard Guarneri poster, 20 years old, faded, and torn.

I don't really like the look of the Alard Guarneri, the details are very rough.

The scroll is something any Chinese workshop could 'knock out'.

The purfling is atrocious, the f holes are poorly cut and totally asymmetrical

You'd have to be having a bad day to cut them that bad.

The outline of the violin is very much like the Kreisler, and two fiddles I'm making.

Rocca was very neat by comparison.

Cheers.

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:) Joseph Rocca loved it, as he was one of the first italian violin makers to use a Guarneri model.

Before that he was just making Pressenda models (of which by now I've found NOTHING! posters, measures etc... sigh)

A friend recently gave me his Alard Guarneri poster, 20 years old, faded, and torn.

I don't really like the look of the Alard Guarneri, the details are very rough.

The scroll is something any Chinese workshop could 'knock out'.

The purfling is atrocious, the f holes are poorly cut and totally asymmetrical

You'd have to be having a bad day to cut them that bad.

The outline of the violin is very much like the Kreisler, and two fiddles I'm making.

Rocca was very neat by comparison.

Cheers.

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A friend recently gave me his Alard Guarneri poster, 20 years old, faded, and torn.

I don't really like the look of the Alard Guarneri, the details are very rough.

The scroll is something any Chinese workshop could 'knock out'.

The purfling is atrocious, the f holes are poorly cut and totally asymmetrical

You'd have to be having a bad day to cut them that bad.

The outline of the violin is very much like the Kreisler, and two fiddles I'm making.

Rocca was very neat by comparison.

Cheers.

I have to disagree The Alard is a very nice fiddle.Later Del Gesus are not known for their neatness.

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I have to disagree The Alard is a very nice fiddle.Later Del Gesus are not known for their neatness.

I kind of like it myself. The pristine condition makes it doubly interesting. Seeing as how it was supposedly found by Vuillaume in a drawer next to the Messiah in Tarisio's residence, and therefore shares quite a bit of history with it, I am amazed by the comparatively low profile of this instrument. In fact, I thought about this instrument when reading "Sleeper", which culminates in the fictional discovery of just such an almost untouched del Gesu.

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The Del Gesu Allard is a load of old cobblers, by today's standards.

As is a lot of old stuff.

Rocca made use of Del Gesu's reputation just as you lot do, by saying how 'nice ' that old fiddle is.

Just cos it sounds good doesn't mean it was well made.

It's rough as a barn door.

Paolo, if you want / need this old Allard poster I can send it to you, if you can send me a poster of a viola or something interesting in return.

Cheers.

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Thank you Ben,

I'm studying italian piedmontese violing making school, and Rocca is considered one of the best violin makers of 19th century. I really need to study the GdG Alard as a starting point to make his violins.

This Alard poster has thicknesses of bottom and belly on it? If these measurements are written in the poster please choose a poster on thestrad website (or the violin kaking site you prefer) and I will immediatly order it for you in return, you can send me your address in a PM :)

The Del Gesu Allard is a load of old cobblers, by today's standards.

As is a lot of old stuff.

Rocca made use of Del Gesu's reputation just as you lot do, by saying how 'nice ' that old fiddle is.

Just cos it sounds good doesn't mean it was well made.

It's rough as a barn door.

Paolo, if you want / need this old Allard poster I can send it to you, if you can send me a poster of a viola or something interesting in return.

Cheers.

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Welcomne Paolo,

''This Alard poster has thicknesses of bottom and belly on it?''

Yes, but it's not in great condition, useable with torn edges etc.

Hey, you're really too kind, a poster swap would be great.

I should send you a few old posters if you send me a new poster.

I was just looking at the thicknesses, I can send you them to you tomorrow.

The archings are quite 'normal', back and front being similar.

Cheers.

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The Del Gesu Allard is a load of old cobblers, by today's standards.

As is a lot of old stuff.

Rocca made use of Del Gesu's reputation just as you lot do, by saying how 'nice ' that old fiddle is.

Just cos it sounds good doesn't mean it was well made.

It's rough as a barn door.

Paolo, if you want / need this old Allard poster I can send it to you, if you can send me a poster of a viola or something interesting in return.

Cheers.

Ben, you have no taste :)

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A friend recently gave me his Alard Guarneri poster, 20 years old, faded, and torn.

I don't really like the look of the Alard Guarneri, the details are very rough.

The scroll is something any Chinese workshop could 'knock out'.

The purfling is atrocious, the f holes are poorly cut and totally asymmetrical

You'd have to be having a bad day to cut them that bad.

I agree that the scroll is wonky and the purfling isn't up to today's standards. However, I think the f holes are well cut (just look at the bass f hole which hasn't suffered from sound post setters) and fairly symmetrical.

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If I am not wrong, the article about the Alard mentions that most probably it was regraduated by Vuillaume, since the inside work is very clean.

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Hi everybody

Ten years ago the Paris museum ordered me a fac simile of the guarneri Allard

this work has been done into the muséum laboratory

with the original violin on the bench

you will find the full size inside outlines of the ribs structure (without bloc) made for this occasion from the back and table sides .

An opportunity to engage a reflexion about the validity an extrapolation

of the measurement taken from pictures...

françois

delgesu_allard_table_back.pdf

1845-50 violin:

Back length= 354mm, bouts = 208,112.3,169.

Ribs-bottom=30.8, top=29.3mm

head of scroll= 39.4mm wide.

f holes 44mm apart at upper eyes.

body stop=195mm

185x ? violin:

Back length= 353mm, bouts = 208.5,113,168.5mm.

Ribs-bottom=31.2, top=30.9 mm

head of scroll= 40.4mm wide.

f holes 43.5mm apart at upper eyes.

body stop=193mm

F holes are a mirror image of the left side `f` hole of the Alard Guarneri. i.e symmetrical

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Hi

Thanks for the pictures. Does the blue line represent the form as it would be from measurements taken from a picture and the red one the actual real outline you took from the violin?

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Thank you Fracois, really interesting... now I realize how much belly and back are different on antique instruments... :)

I have always choosen the back from photos and posters. But after the extrapolation I enlarge all measures proportionally to obtain a 355 body instrument at the final step.

p.s. Most of us at the violin making school appreciate and study your book about proportional design.

Hi everybody

Ten years ago the Paris museum ordered me a fac simile of the guarneri Allard

this work has been done into the muséum laboratory

with the original violin on the bench

you will find the full size inside outlines of the ribs structure (without bloc) made for this occasion from the back and table sides .

An opportunity to engage a reflexion about the validity an extrapolation

of the measurement taken from pictures...

françois

delgesu_allard_table_back.pdf

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In red the outline (of the rib structure) near the table

In blue the outline near the back

Fd

Hi

Thanks for the pictures. Does the blue line represent the form as it would be from measurements taken from a picture and the red one the actual real outline you took from the violin?

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Take care that the most importante part of these discrepancies

come from the fact that the form is very twisted

If you abstract that point the form become more symetrical

FD

PS: The large pattern of nicolo amati is the original template used by del Gesu

to produce the two types of foms used during all is life.

as attached file you will find the superimposition of two del gesu outline with the grand amati pattern (scale1)

Ddel_Gesu1.pdf

del_gesu2.pdf

del_gesus3.pdf

Thank you Fracois, really interesting... now I realize how much belly and back are different on antique instruments... :)

I have always choosen the back from photos and posters. But after the extrapolation I enlarge all measures proportionally to obtain a 355 body instrument at the final step.

p.s. Most of us at the violin making school appreciate and study your book about proportional design.

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