Making Marciana Vanish

[pt3]

I made a small batch of varnish according to Marciana recipe this morning. Everything was ok, the pre-cooked rosin was dissolved well, and then I added mastic slowly at a temperature of 240 C while stirring, it did swell up, I cooked it for about 30 minutes and finished the varnish making. After that, while the varnish was still warm I filtered it and found quite a lot of solid residues at the bottom of the cookong pot.

Is this a normal phenomenon? I know that mastic can partly be dissolved in alcohol or turpentine. Maybe also just partly in hot linseed oil?

[JohnCockburn]

I made a small batch of varnish according to Marciana recipe this morning. Everything was ok, the pre-cooked rosin was dissolved well, and then I added mastic slowly at a temperature of 240 C while stirring, it did swell up, I cooked it for about 30 minutes and finished the varnish making. After that, while the varnish was still warm I filtered it and found quite a lot of solid residues at the bottom of the cookong pot.

Is this a normal phenomenon? I know that mastic can partly be dissolved in alcohol or turpentine. Maybe also just partly in hot linseed oil?

A while ago Neil Ertz very generously posted full details of how he makes his version of this varnish. May I suggest you do a search?

[Wolfjk]

I made a small batch of varnish according to Marciana recipe this morning. Everything was ok, the pre-cooked rosin was dissolved well, and then I added mastic slowly at a temperature of 240 C while stirring, it did swell up, I cooked it for about 30 minutes and finished the varnish making. After that, while the varnish was still warm I filtered it and found quite a lot of solid residues at the bottom of the cookong pot.

Is this a normal phenomenon? I know that mastic can partly be dissolved in alcohol or turpentine. Maybe also just partly in hot linseed oil?

Hi,

I found that mastic burns around 140C so you probably found the ashes from it in the bottom of your pot!

At 240C you creamated your mastic!

[JohnCockburn]

Hi,

I found that mastic burns around 140C so you probably found the ashes from it in the bottom of your pot!

At 240C you creamated your mastic!

i find no problems at 200c, but maybe 240 is a little on the warm side!

[~ Ben Conover]

Didn't filter mine, & I got a load of sediment in my varnish but it sinks to the bottom of the jar, I just use the stuff at the top.

[joerobson]

I made a small batch of varnish according to Marciana recipe this morning. Everything was ok, the pre-cooked rosin was dissolved well, and then I added mastic slowly at a temperature of 240 C while stirring, it did swell up, I cooked it for about 30 minutes and finished the varnish making. After that, while the varnish was still warm I filtered it and found quite a lot of solid residues at the bottom of the cookong pot.

Is this a normal phenomenon? I know that mastic can partly be dissolved in alcohol or turpentine. Maybe also just partly in hot linseed oil?

pt3,

What was the batch size? What proportion was varnish and what proportion was residue?

Joe

[Mike_Danielson]

I assume you mean recipe #399 and 400 in Mrs. Merrifield's book--I just reviewed them. The details are really lacking on how long and how hot to cook the mastic--real problem with these old recipes. Clearly, you decomposed the mastic.

Better do more study using others experiences. In my opinion, if you can cook decent food, you can make varnish. You just need to find a reasonable recipe and follow it. Let the creative forces come later after you have some experience.

Mike D

[Bill Yacey]

Because mastic will readily dissolve in cold turpentine spirits, I think I would be inclined to first prepare and cook the varnish without the mastic, and then when it's cooled to perhaps around 50 0r 60C, add the mastic dissolved in turpentine and boil off the spirits.

[JohnCockburn]

Because mastic will readily dissolve in cold turpentine spirits, I think I would be inclined to first prepare and cook the varnish without the mastic, and then when it's cooled to perhaps around 50 0r 60C, add the mastic dissolved in turpentine and boil off the spirits.

No. See post #2.

[Oded Kishony]

Do you happen to have the title of that (NE) thread or a handy link ?

Oded

[Roger Hill]

Do you happen to have the title of that (NE) thread or a handy link ?

Oded

Hi Oded:

I copied all of the pertinent parts of that thread to a file I keep on interesting topics. (Your varnish making recipe is in there also)

here it is:

Neil Ertz Varnish

That looks a nice viola Jacob; I especially like (from what I can see in the photos) the way the edge works, thanks for posting it.

A very basic summary of the way I varnished mine is;

The initial ground colour is several weeks in a UV cabinet.

Then the wood is sealed with a thick slurry of my varnish and pumis powder burnished into the pours of the wood. Then I’ve loaded on about three coats of my varnish heavily laden with home made madder pigments using an old fashioned brush to give a fully varnished even finish, letting each coat dry before adding the next.

Once that was dry I just started to ware it off and add a little dirt and grime along with some light marks to give the appearance of a well cared for classical Italian violin. It’s easy to get carried away adding dirt and marks, but generally the less you add the better it looks.

The varnish is a very simple oil varnish made up of boiled linseed oil, cooked mastic and cooked colophony. The varnish itself has a little intrinsic colour (golden orange brownish) from cooking the resins prior to amalgamating them with the oil, but the majority of the colour comes from the pigments which are far easier to make then most people think.

The basis for this type of varnish and pigment making is all in the Geary Baese book “classical Italian violin varnish, its history, materials preparation and application”. I have altered the recipes he gives over the years to suit my tastes, experiences and scientific incompetence.

Unfortunately this book has become pretty expensive, but I think it has been the most useful book for me that I’ve ever read about varnishing violins, if I could recommend just one book for this enormous subject the Baese book would be it.

(manfio)

Hi Nertz! You've said you pre cook the mastic and colophony prior to mix it with the varnish. How (and why) do you do that (because Baese does not mention that, if I'm not wrong)? Thank you!

Yes that is one of the changes I have made.

The idea was to get a little intrinsic colour into the varnish, and cooking the resins seems to be the best way.

The mastic doesn’t get very dark, but you can get a nice orange gold brown in the colophony by cooking it for a while at not to high a temperature. At higher temperatures it tends to go a slightly cold brown colour.

I did use cooked Strasburg turpentine rather then colophony for a while and gives a warmer colour then the colophony I think, but it is extremely expensive and because the pigments I make with madder are an extremely rich warm red I don’t mind if the varnish alone is a bit brown.

(manfio)

Hi Nertz! Thank you! René Morel said this about adding colour by cooking resins and gums:

"Take a lump of sugar and put it on a heating dish. it will melt and turn yellow and then brown. Just before it gets completely burnt, and for only a few seconds, it will turn bright red. Then it will turn black. When one heats gum and resin, the same phenomenon occurs and the same color can be observed. What one has here, then, is a color which is said to be dichoric." (Les Violons - Venetian Instruments - Expostion on Hôtel de Ville de Paris - 1995).

For the other members I can say that I've tried Nertz ground and it looked fantastic, I've used it in the violin I've posted in the thread "meeting Michael Tree".

As you may know, Nertz worked with Roger Hargrave, a big name in violin making, and assisted him in the Del Gesù Exibition.

(ertz)Hi Hongda

I apply my thick paste/slurry of pumis and varnish mix to the instrument with a simple hog hair brush (like a glue brush) and burnish it off with bits of rough towling cloth, the resulting surface is totally sealed and burnished smooth.

Once my varnish is made up I don’t add anymore linseed oil as this will alter my oil resin ratio. But the varnish is rather thick so I use a solvent to thin it down to a more manageable consistency.

I did use essence of petrol for a while but switched to the cheaper turpentine substitute or white spirit a few years ago. I’m not keen on genuine turpentine because I have found it has a tendency to make application harder for some reason and one of the nice things about this varnish is that is very easy to manage on the brush.

Neil.

Hi HongDa

My initial interpretation of the Baese recipe was to bring the resins to a high enough temperature to melt them and then bring the oil to a similar temperature before carefully pouring the hot oil into the melted resins to amalgamate them into a varnish.

To try and get a bit more colour in the varnish I decided to cook the resins for a bit before adding the oil, basically the longer you cook them the darker they get. Some resins seem to colour more then others with cooking and of course different resins take on different colours with cooking. Also the temperature you cook them seems to affect the eventual colour……so you have endless possibilities and quite a few opportunities to go wrong!

I’m using colophony and mastic in my varnish at the moment and I cook them separately prior to adding them to the oil.

I don’t like cooking the resins at too high a temperature, I’m not certain but I have a feeling I get warmer colours by cooking longer but at lower temperatures…..but I might be wrong.

I think as long as you are sensible and cook things outside on an electric hotplate away from small kids it should be reasonably safe.

I seem to remember the Fulton recipe involves cooking genuine turpentine which is an awful lot more dangerous then cooking most resins as I think the fumes are particularly flammable ……..I’m to much of a scardy-pants to try that.

neil

Yes I started out from the recipe on page 49, but have evolved it over the years.

I heat up my resins on one hot plate in a pan and my oil on another hotplate in a pan, and then slowly pour the oil into the resins. As it cools down it thickens and at that stage I slowly add solvent to get the consistency I am after.

The varnish I’ve made will dry within 24hr in my UV cabinet, but I have noticed that fresh made varnish seems to dry a bit slower then stuff I have had in a jar for a few months.

I really like the properties of this type of varnish; it dries nicely but seems to remain soft (by this I don’t mean sticky, but that it wears off pretty easily) It’s very easy to apply, works nicely on the brush and seems to be a nice medium for the type of pigments I make.

In reality I’m rather inexperienced with varnish making, I’ve found something that seems to work fairly well for me and I continue tinkering around with details in a shockingly unscientific and random way and convince myself that I’m making progress, but when discussions like this start I’m fascinated and somewhat embarrassed by my ignorance!

[JohnCockburn]

The important point being:

"I heat up my resins on one hot plate in a pan and my oil on another hotplate in a pan, and then slowly pour the oil into the resins. As it cools down it thickens and at that stage I slowly add solvent to get the consistency I am after"

[Janito]

The Baese book mentions that the oil-colophony is cooked and then allowed to cool to 80C before adding mastic.

[JohnCockburn]

The Baese book mentions that the oil-colophony is cooked and then allowed to cool to 80C before adding mastic.

All I can say is that Neil's method works!

[Bill Yacey]

No. See post #2.

I looked at post #2 again and don't quite understand your objection. This isn't really cooking the mastic , but will it not combine with the other resin / oil mixture?

[JohnCockburn]

I looked at post #2 again and don't quite understand your objection. This isn't really cooking the mastic , but will it not combine with the other resin / oil mixture?

Hi Bill, my only objection is that making this varnish is terribly simple using the method that Neil described, and there's no need to complicate matters.

Your suggestion may well work. I honestly have no idea. Neil taught me a way of making the Marciana varnish that works and I intend to stick with it.

[Bill Yacey]

Hi Bill, my only objection is that making this varnish is terribly simple using the method that Neil described, and there's no need to complicate matters.

Your suggestion may well work. I honestly have no idea. Neil taught me a way of making the Marciana varnish that works and I intend to stick with it.

I understand. I thought adding the mastic at a relatively low temperature would prevent it from burning up like the original poster experienced. Of course this will not impart much in the way of color into the varnish.

[Roger Hill]

Hi Bill, my only objection is that making this varnish is terribly simple using the method that Neil described, and there's no need to complicate matters.

Your suggestion may well work. I honestly have no idea. Neil taught me a way of making the Marciana varnish that works and I intend to stick with it.

Hi John, IIRC, you mentioned in another thread that you do not use a full 25% mastic when you make this varnish. Mind telling us how much you do use?

[Janito]

All I can say is that Neil's method works!

I am in the knowledge acquisition stage at the moment, waiting for components to try, so it's useful to air what has been written, if only to solicit counters.

I have found several instances where makers say/write one thing, and apparently don't 'walk the talk', or don't inform folks that they no longer 'walk that particular talk'.

ps - your comments on the Nertz varnish are useful.

[JohnCockburn]

I am in the knowledge acquisition stage at the moment, waiting for components to try, so it's useful to air what has been written, if only to solicit counters.

I have found several instances where makers say/write one thing, and apparently don't 'walk the talk', or don't inform folks that they no longer 'walk that particular talk'.

ps - your comments on the Nertz varnish are useful.

I've personally seen Neil make this varnish in exactly the way he describes in his posts, so there is no "walkie-talkie" issue here!

Roger: I've found the recipe to work well for most colophony:mastic ratios. I currently like a resin ratio of 75% colophony to 25% mastic. I personally don't like anything above 50% mastic: I find it "wishy-washy".

I'm going to shut up now. I feel that any further comments should come from Neil himself, if he is so inclined.

[Oded Kishony]

Hmmmm... I don't know if this constitutes a 'confession' but I no longer use the "Ash Varnish" recipe.

I now cook (kremer's) Larch with a bit of raw umber or manganese brown (also from Kremer) for about an hour @ 250F then add an equal amount of walnut oil, cook for about 2 hours @250-300F for about 2 hours till it pulls a good string. While the solution is still warm I add and equal volume of hot (just starting to vaporize at the surface) turpentine. Then filter through two layers of cheese cloth.

I find this a simpler, easier recipe to make and the varnish to work very well.

Oded

[~ Ben Conover]

Here's the Beardsmore / Coggins method.

http://www.thestrad.com/pdfs/VarnishTradeSecrets.pdf

[Roger Hill]

Hmmmm... I don't know if this constitutes a 'confession' but I no longer use the "Ash Varnish" recipe.

I now cook (kremer's) Larch with a bit of raw umber or manganese brown (also from Kremer) for about an hour @ 250F then add an equal amount of walnut oil, cook for about 2 hours @250-300F for about 2 hours till it pulls a good string. While the solution is still warm I add and equal volume of hot (just starting to vaporize at the surface) turpentine. Then filter through two layers of cheese cloth.

I find this a simpler, easier recipe to make and the varnish to work very well.

Oded

I have updated my file. If you ever need a copy of your Ash Varnish instructions, I'll send you one

[Roland]

Hmmmm... I don't know if this constitutes a 'confession' but I no longer use the "Ash Varnish" recipe.

I now cook (kremer's) Larch with a bit of raw umber or manganese brown (also from Kremer) for about an hour @ 250F then add an equal amount of walnut oil, cook for about 2 hours @250-300F for about 2 hours till it pulls a good string. While the solution is still warm I add and equal volume of hot (just starting to vaporize at the surface) turpentine. Then filter through two layers of cheese cloth.

I find this a simpler, easier recipe to make and the varnish to work very well.

Oded

Hello Oded,

thanks for sharing this recipe! It reminds me of Brian Lisus' varnish (as explained in the "quartet of peace" blog). You seem to keep the temperatures fairly low, that's interesting...

Are you using this larch turpentine? By "add an equal amount of oil", do you mean the weight of of the cooked larch turpentine?

Thank you very much!

Roland

[Oded Kishony]

Yes, that's the Larch I use. Yes, equal weight resin and oil. (based on my last batch which I thought was a little too lean) OK