Violin/Viola in 17th century painting....

[1alpha]

A recent sale at Christie's was this unusual study by the great Dutch artist Franz Hals, dated around 1625.

It is called The Violinist but looks like a viola to me? Any ideas?

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot_det...bjectID=5339058

[fiddlecollector]

A recent sale at Christie's was this unusual study by the great Dutch artist Franz Hals, dated around 1625.

It is called The Violinist but looks like a viola to me? Any ideas?

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot_det...bjectID=5339058

I think instruments in paintings particularly the violin family , are almost never depicted accurately ,they nearly always have strange proportions. What leads you to think its a viola(it may well be)?

[FiddleDoug]

Your kidding, right? No one could identify that. Artist's depictions are unlikely to be correct enough to identify the instrument maker.

[lvlagneto]

I think Picasso made this one. It is rare for instruments to be depicted properly (most often see backward f holes and crazy bridge placement), especially when a figure is involved. Still-lives are your best bet for accurate imagery. This painting is particularly flat in terms of the artists understanding of the instrument. You may be able to take the varnish color to heart though.

[Bacon]

When addressing musical instrument iconography, we often calculate the distance between the eyes as shorter than today. In general people were considered smaller. Considering that aside from what appears a large bottom bout one should look at the shoulder of the peg box for a reduction to the fingerboard as well as look at the width of the ribs. The Dutch school has many prime examples of accurate instruments in art, this isn't one of the best. Another consideration is that very rarely did the artiest subscribe the title to the work. This was often done at a later time with dubious accuracy. I'd vote a youth and a violin, but really feel I don't have enough information.

[Wm. Johnston]

Kind of unusual for a violin painting, the f-holes look fairly correct but the fingerboard is completely flat. There are some nice old still life paintings of violins that include nice depictions of the bridges used at that time.

[jmannsback]

When addressing musical instrument iconography, we often calculate the distance between the eyes as shorter than today. In general people were considered smaller. Considering that aside from what appears a large bottom bout one should look at the shoulder of the peg box for a reduction to the fingerboard as well as look at the width of the ribs. The Dutch school has many prime examples of accurate instruments in art, this isn't one of the best. Another consideration is that very rarely did the artiest subscribe the title to the work. This was often done at a later time with dubious accuracy. I'd vote a youth and a violin, but really feel I don't have enough information.

Sorta like trying to guess how drunk Jackson Pollock was while creating those sling/slang/slung/drip paintings, huh?

[Magnus Nedregard]

I would say it is quite possible it might haven been a viola, (but of course violins often come out a little oversized in drawings and paintings, so you can't tell really, unless there's some clue apart from size).

Still, I've heard that violas were in fact much more popular in the early days of violin-family development, before the violin really caught on. Some even say they recognize the Brescian style in many of these pictures, indicating a greater number of Brescian instruments in circulation in those days. If, for instance, this is a viola, it is definitely not Cremonese, but could very well be Brescian, with that narrow pegbox and curvy f-holes....

[1alpha]

I would say it is quite possible it might haven been a viola, (but of course violins often come out a little oversized in drawings and paintings, so you can't tell really, unless there's some clue apart from size).

Still, I've heard that violas were in fact much more popular in the early days of violin-family development, before the violin really caught on. Some even say they recognize the Brescian style in many of these pictures, indicating a greater number of Brescian instruments in circulation in those days. If, for instance, this is a viola, it is definitely not Cremonese, but could very well be Brescian, with that narrow pegbox and curvy f-holes....

Thanks for all the feedback so far. The description from Christies suggests that Hals made a detailed study of the player with his instrument,

and we can see the actual depiction of the playing technique is well done, so why not this same level of observation in the reproduction of the instrument, after all Hals is a major Dutch artist. His Lute Player painting looks like a good representation of a lute so why would the Violinist be playing a viola? Unless it is a viola and the painting was called 'The Violinist" at a later date.

[Magnus Nedregard]

I think it will be impossible to tell since non of us were there at the sitting :^) but actually any instrument of the violin family tends to "become" a violin to the general public, violas are nearly unheard of, and I've even heard double basses spoken of as "very big violins".

[GlennYorkPA]

A recent sale at Christie's was this unusual study by the great Dutch artist Franz Hals, dated around 1625.

It is called The Violinist but looks like a viola to me? Any ideas?

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot_det...bjectID=5339058

This painting pre-dates Bach but it has been suggested that in Bach's time, the left hand thumb was used to stop the G string in chordal playing. This painting seems to support that.

The instrument may be short on detail but the hands are very accurately depicted.

Glenn

[richardz]

If we're looking for attempts at authenticity here, one telltale sign for me is that the bow looks like it's upside down and the player is bowing with the wood part of the bow, rather than the hair.

[Bacon]

Richard it is an illusion, as today, black hair is often preferred on the narrow hair ribbon of the baroque bow for better grab. The bow in this case was a lighter colored wood.

[Andres Sender]

It's pretty common for people who have not practiced drawing realistically to miss significant distortions in paintings and drawings.

... and we can see the actual depiction of the playing technique is well done,

Well, however accurate the depiction, the technique isn't viable. The players fingers are so low relative to the board that they are in no position to play anything, the first joints of the middle fingers seem to be flattened against the board, and the index finger is below the board entirely.

so why not this same level of observation in the reproduction of the instrument, after all Hals is a major Dutch artist.

The issue doesn't even get this far, there are enough clear observational failures on the rendering of the violin that the qualifications of the artist aren't even at issue. Note the "bridge", the previously mentioned flat fingerboard, the impossible difference in rib heights either side of the neck, the discontinuous line on the treble side of the fingerboard...

As to the size of the instrument, although it is likely that Hals had a model with an actual instrument pose for him, so that the relative size of the instrument might reflect what he actually saw, it was also not uncommon for painters to put together elements taken from different sources, i.e. a drawing of a model from one session, a copy of a prop from someone else's painting, etc.

This painting pre-dates Bach but it has been suggested that in Bach's time, the left hand thumb was used to stop the G string in chordal playing. This painting seems to support that.

A late 17th century observer (North) mentions seeing a viol player using this technique, but as far as I am aware there are no written references to such a use of the thumb on the violin in period sources. I gather the speculation about it comes from modern writers looking at period paintings. At any rate I don't think we can conclude anything about actual playing from this painting.

To amplify Stephen Bacon's point, very dark, or apparently black hair appears often in period renderings and is being experimented with more and more now by some baroque players, and there is some basis for speculating that the earliest violin bows were made of domestic European hardwoods. They often are rendered in a light to medium brown color in paintings.

[MeyerFittings]

A recent sale at Christie's was this unusual study by the great Dutch artist Franz Hals, dated around 1625.

It is called The Violinist but looks like a viola to me? Any ideas?

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot_det...bjectID=5339058

For a depiction that has so many incongruities I was (not suprisingly) interested in the ornate lyre shaped ebony colored pegs. Much darker than the fingerboard which is dark brown. Not only was ebony not a common peg wood at this time but I remembered in my pea brain some pegs that were made by the Hill workers for the Ashmolian Collection. I'll bet they had an old peg in their box of ancient pegs to copy that looked like this Hals rendition.

Also, any chance the end of the fingerboard could have a bevel that would cut away the curve and make the end look square? The nut looks like it has a curve to it.

[MeyerFittings]

wait that didn't work. Here it is.