Locked up secrets

[Johnmasters]

I have been accused of using my "sphynx's paw" to hide secrets.

On the other hand, I have made a lot of postings which had very strong suggestions for what people might try to do. Those postings are almost never addressed by Michael Darnton, David Burgess, Jeffery Holmes, or any of the other professional makers.

Aren't those people the ones who keep their secrets ? And don't give you the magic sealer or whatever else it is you want? Do you really expect me to have ideas and products both free? Should I offer to sell stuff? Joe does. That could be done, but nobody has suggested it.

[Andres Sender]

John, don’t spend any time on this. One person says something, it doesn’t necessarily mean anything.

I think, specifically with regard to what you don’t tell us about your formulations, that you’re being entirely fair.

Oh I think people have suggested you sell stuff though, maybe it seemed tongue in cheek to you.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

I have been accused of using my "sphynx's paw" to hide secrets.

On the other hand, I have made a lot of postings which had very strong suggestions for what people might try to do. Those postings are almost never addressed by Michael Darnton, David Burgess, Jeffery Holmes, or any of the other professional makers.

Aren't those people the ones who keep their secrets ? And don't give you the magic sealer or whatever else it is you want? Do you really expect me to have ideas and products both free? Should I offer to sell stuff? Joe does. That could be done, but nobody has suggested it.

How the heck did my name get dragged into this... and what's this all about?

[Johnmasters]

How the heck did my name get dragged into this... and what's this all about?

It was something in another thread. About mixing pigments into varnish. You are an example of a professional maker as opposed to many or most members who are hobbyists.

[Johnmasters]

John, don’t spend any time on this. One person says something, it doesn’t necessarily mean anything.

I think, specifically with regard to what you don’t tell us about your formulations, that you’re being entirely fair.

Oh I think people have suggested you sell stuff though, maybe it seemed tongue in cheek to you.

Thanks, Andres. I can tell you why I have my attitude, and I take it to heart.

Our society and planet is in trouble because many simply do not think in science terms, physical terms, or abstract terms. Utility is the only meaningful thing to some people.

Eventually, the population will have to understand many technical things and understand that they are NOT political issues. Global warming, depletion of natural resources, concentrations of wealth and what cause them.

I like to suggest ideas because they are useful. All of these other ideas that should be alarming I also take seriously. You see what I mean. Just start with one idea and try to expand it. Good for nearly anyone and about any topic.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

It was something in another thread. About mixing pigments into varnish. You are an example of a professional maker as opposed to many or most members who are hobbyists.

Oh... OK. Still not sure I understand. Is someone here under the impression we all share everything we know, all the time, without a filter?

I've mentioned before that I don't "tell all" on a public forum and wouldn't really expect anyone else to. What I choose to share, I share. At the same time, I also don't make a habit of pointing out what I didn't say... tends to make others feel poorly... but for the reord in this case, I didn't share anything about mixing pigments into varnish... so whoever is pissed can be pissed at me too.

BTW: What IS shared here is often plenty. I pay attention to as much as I can, and have adopted several "tips" and methods for myself over the years.

Are we done now?

[Johnmasters]

Oh... OK. Still not sure I understand. Is someone here under the impression we all share everything we know, all the time, without a filter?

I've mentioned before that I don't "tell all" on a public forum and wouldn't really expect anyone else to. What I choose to share, I share. At the same time, I also don't make a habit of pointing out what I didn't say... tends to make others feel poorly... but for the record in this case, I didn't share anything about mixing pigments into varnish... so whoever is pissed can be pissed at me too.

BTW: What IS shared here is often plenty. I pay attention to as much as I can, and have adopted several "tips" and methods for myself over the years.

Are we done now?

I was not reacting strongly, it was just an oportunity to point out the same thing you have said. The comment to me about the sphynx was almost certainly tongue in cheek.

But I DID want an excuse to promote my cause: Experiment and learn from hands-on experience. That is all.

Hey... Gotta take every opportunity that presents itself.

Well, I will erase the comment...

[Roger Hill]

I have been accused of using my "sphynx's paw" to hide secrets.

On the other hand, I have made a lot of postings which had very strong suggestions for what people might try to do. Those postings are almost never addressed by Michael Darnton, David Burgess, Jeffery Holmes, or any of the other professional makers.

Aren't those people the ones who keep their secrets ? And don't give you the magic sealer or whatever else it is you want? Do you really expect me to have ideas and products both free? Should I offer to sell stuff? Joe does. That could be done, but nobody has suggested it.

No, John, you're not being unfair. We are all adults here, we come here for what we hope to gain, knowledge or otherwise and we take freely from what is offered. What you disclose is entirely at your discretion. I am free to do whatever I want with it. Just by knowing what you disclose, I have more knowledge than I had before. What I do with it is up to me. Would we all like a spoon fed solution to all the secrets of the Cremonese? well, not really. Then the factory makers would produce "Cremonese like" instruments by the gross. I kinda' like pursuing knowledge that may (or may not) contribute to an ideal. If it is all known and understood I think I will pursue some other hobby. Lets face it: we are not going to put Tony, Joe or Nick out of business whatever we do here. The classical music audiences demand that our virtuosos play an ancient Italian violin. We here are just having fun, or at a higher level, perhaps satisfying the needs of some up-and-comers among players. We are not going to see the products of modern makers selling for millions. So lets just continue our puzzle solving and enjoy the trip........the destination wouldn't be recognized even if we arrived there. The BBC program with Stern, Zukerman and Beare demonstrates that.

Maybe I can say this better another way: with all appropriate modesty, I am a world class fly fisherman, have written a best selling book on the subject, give talks at Trout Unlimited meetings, etc. I am often asked "if you could fish only one fly what would it be?" My reply is always the same "well, it would be a Mepps spinner, one you could just throw out and reel in. No thought required. You see, for me, the real enjoyment of fly fishing is puzzling over what are the trout doing? What insect are they taking? What stage of the insect are they eating, adult? nymph? I couldn't possibly imitate these for different insects with only one fly. So if you limited me to one fly you would take away the real joy of fly fishing, the intellectual puzzle of what the trout want which must be solved in real time by observing what the trout are doing". I think the same for violin making. For me it is the pursuit of the sound. For others it may be the pursuit of the aesthetics, the corners, purfling, scrolls, yes the varnish, all of which don't excite me that much. But if you provide the entire Cremonese recipe, I will spend more time at my fly fishing forums.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

We are done except for one more comment: You are a bit pompous sounding and no need for it. :)

Hey... Gotta take every opportunity that presents itself.

[lyndon]

well jefferey i well respect your position being the moderator and all but there is one problem, if no knowledgeable repairman/makers share anything were kind of stuck with a lot of newbies, rank amateurs ready to share everything, and if the professionals let bad advice go uncorrected we really have a net negative effect for the forum, not that its quite that bad right now, but i see all kinds of cr4p; glue bass bars with wood glue, questionable varnishes and finishes, overuse of sandpaper etc, if this forum is going to grow and prosper we need some positve input from professionals to sort of weed through the amateur stuff, otherwise whats the point; a social network where everyone hates each other i hope not, opinions

[skiingfiddler]

Our society and planet is in trouble because many simply do not think in science terms, physical terms, or abstract terms. Utility is the only meaningful thing to some people.

Eventually, the population will have to understand many technical things and understand that they are NOT political issues. Global warming, depletion of natural resources, concentrations of wealth and what cause them.

It is certainly true, that many people do not think in scientific terms at a time when an understanding of technical and scientific issues is vital to society making good decisions.

So, what's the fix for that? Is it to keep throwing more scientific language at people in the hopes that they, the general public, will finally realize that they are the deficient ones, needing more scientific training, and they happily take a night course at the local college to fill their deficiencies?

Or is it the responsibility of science to put ideas and issues in terms that the general public can understand. I think scientists often do not really try to communicate with the general public because it takes too long. The scientists can't use their shorthand terms that carry an understanding in one word that would require a couple of paragraphs to explain to the novice.

We're paying now for the withdrawal of the scientific community from a dialogue with the public about issues of daily life, like climate change. It's not that the general public is too stupid to understand the central issues of some science; the problem is that the scientific community is too lazy (or doesn't know how) to communicate with the general public.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

well jefferey i well respect your position being the moderator and all but there is one problem, if no knowledgeable repairman/makers share anything were kind of stuck with a lot of newbies, rank amateurs ready to share everything, and if the professionals let bad advice go uncorrected we really have a net negative effect for the forum, not that its quite that bad right now, but i see all kinds of cr4p; glue bass bars with wood glue, questionable varnishes and finishes, overuse of sandpaper etc, if this forum is going to grow and prosper we need some positve input from professionals to sort of weed through the amateur stuff, otherwise whats the point; a social network where everyone hates each other i hope not, opinions

Don't think I said that I, or others, didn't share "anything". There is quite a bit of good information shared on this forum. There is also some not-so-good information... but that happens on any public forum. Heck, there's a mix that happens in the media, in schools, and in living rooms across the world as well.

Great piece of advice I was given when I first started working to try and sort out makers/origin was to write down the source of the information. Came in handy later on. That's pretty much done for you here.

[JimMurphy]

Hiding secrets ??

Zen Proverb: “Those who know don't tell and those who tell don't know.”

Did Antonio Stradivari really learn any of Andrea Amati's secrets, or was he just one of those empirical guys too ?

Jim

[MANFIO]

I think you can reveal all your secrets here... the reason is that almost everybody will continue to make things the way they are used to do, so you can adopt a total disclosure policy without problems.

[NewNewbie]

... if this forum is going to grow and prosper we need some positve input from professionals to sort of weed through the amateur stuff, otherwise whats the point; a social network where everyone hates each other i hope not, opinions

Do you think we then need to pay the professionals for their contributions?

Just a wild thought. Perhaps a Pay Per View forum might be the solution.

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John, you probably find yourself in the situation you are in because you go further than most people when sharing, so you are seen as holding something back, whereas if you just kept quite, then you would look like you weren't holding back. Sorta like helping a little old lady across the street, but only halfway.

Everybody has their own motives for being here, and I take it all with a grain of salt. As the internet goes, I can think of a lot worse places to spend some time at than here, and I enjoy everybody's input, no matter what it is. Yes even the ones that I 'don't like', I like, it's just that it takes a little longer to see the merit in them!

The day I need to get all 'lawyered-up' before I can post is the day I will quit. As for now, I only need a para-legal!

Keep just doing what you do best John! That's being you!

[robertdo]

Hiding secrets ??

Zen Proverb: “Those who know don't tell and those who tell don't know.”

Did Antonio Stradivari really learn any of Andrea Amati's secrets, or was he just one of those empirical guys too ?

Jim

So Stradivari was really one of Amati's student?

[Michael Richwine]

Hiding secrets ??

Zen Proverb: “Those who know don't tell and those who tell don't know.”

Did Antonio Stradivari really learn any of Andrea Amati's secrets, or was he just one of those empirical guys too ?

"Those who know do not talk

Those who talk do not know"

Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching, circa 400 BCE, Taoist

I think that doesn't mean what it might appear to mean. In context, it means that if you've "got it", you don't feel need to broadcast it, or "make ado" about it. People tend to talk mostly about what they don't have, what they don't know. In other words, empty drums make the most noise.

I think the pros on this forum have been way more than generous in sharing their experience, and extremely patient with people who think they know more than they do. I'm sure there are a lot of threads that they just stay away from as hopeless causes; I know I do.

I don't understand why some people seem to feel entitled to that which people have garnered through hard work and years of experience. Nobody has any obligation to share their knowledge. It's a gift, and a valuable one at that, at least to me. I've learned so much from others - my mentors, colleagues, and contributors to this forum, and I'm happy to pass on whatever I know that might be useful. But people who make a living at making musical instruments are bound to have some hard-won secrets that they feel differentiate their work from others, and I wouldn't ever expect them to share that sort of thing.

A lot of the things I have been shown and taught didn't sink in until sometimes years later, when my skills and perception finally caught up through practical application. One of the things I like most about this job is the constant sense of discovery.

[Kelvin Scott]

John,

Everyone has a right to negotiate issues of sharing technical or aesthetic approaches in violinmaking as they see fit.

Since we are in the mood for proverbs this evening, I would say that it has been my experience that "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink." I have sat people down at my bench and actually tried to convey to them my methods, for example, antiquing...and at the end of the day their result is always radically different from mine...to such an extent that I am amazed at how we humans filter and reconstruct, personalize even, the knowledge that comes our way.

For me, if I hold back ideas, and I do, here and elsewhere, it is less so to keep them from others out of some base instinct, but more that these formulas, aesthetic preferences, tonewood criteria, ground preparation, etc. are the ingredients that make our work unique, that make our work ours. If everything is shared and disseminated, how boring would the world of violins be? You see this now at big competitions where you walk up and down the rows of instruments and you can spot instrument after instrument that has employed a particular commercial ground.

Secrets, whether real or imagined, will always be a part of the romance and reality of making and selling instruments. And as far as secrets go, I suspect that the less important ones get shared in forums and publications and over a beer; the ones that are fairly important you will tell your assistants and friends; and if you are lucky to have a really important secret in this field, you might tell your son or daughter should they enter the craft.

Sorry to ramble,

Kelvin

"Those who know do not talk

Those who talk do not know"

Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching, circa 400 BCE, Taoist

I think that doesn't mean what it might appear to mean. In context, it means that if you've "got it", you don't feel need to broadcast it, or "make ado" about it. People tend to talk mostly about what they don't have, what they don't know. In other words, empty drums make the most noise.

I think the pros on this forum have been way more than generous in sharing their experience, and extremely patient with people who think they know more than they do. I'm sure there are a lot of threads that they just stay away from as hopeless causes; I know I do.

I don't understand why some people seem to feel entitled to that which people have garnered through hard work and years of experience. Nobody has any obligation to share their knowledge. It's a gift, and a valuable one at that, at least to me. I've learned so much from others - my mentors, colleagues, and contributors to this forum, and I'm happy to pass on whatever I know that might be useful. But people who make a living at making musical instruments are bound to have some hard-won secrets that they feel differentiate their work from others, and I wouldn't ever expect them to share that sort of thing.

A lot of the things I have been shown and taught didn't sink in until sometimes years later, when my skills and perception finally caught up through practical application. One of the things I like most about this job is the constant sense of discovery.

[violins88]

Thought better of my rant. This is not the place for it.

[joerobson]

Kelvin,

Well said as usual. I believe those things we hold as "secrets" are very personal and central to the unique nature of the work. As professionals we have the right and responsibility to protect our livelihood.

As a varnishing instructor, I don't think I have anything to "hide".....there are lots of folks who have a bigger bag of tricks than I do....but I do take pride in having a "teachable" system. As a varnish maker, I have always been up front about the fact that there are certain questions I will not answer. But those techniques are the ones that make my work unique and help pay the bills. In the forum and as I talk to makers I think it is necessary to be as open as possible without hurting myself. In a trade that was built on secrecy I am always amazed at the depth and quality of information shared here and in workshops...a tip of the hat to the Oberlin crowd for getting and keeping that ball rolling!

John,

If folks want your material, then they will be willing to pay for it. If you want to offer your material commercially, go for it. However, be warned: ''When you put your stuff out in public and especially when it is for sale [and not cheap] you will often fell as though you have fed yourself to the lions...."

In this forum, I try to correct anything that might spread confusion about those things I know and hopefully keep my mouth shut about the rest.

on we go,

Joe

[STRAD~STYLE]

I'm not sure how many secrets are left these days. It seems like someone has tried everything you can think of .I am not specifically talking about building stringed instruments .I have been doing upholstery work over 12 years and would consider myself a expert even though i might not be a expert luthier but i always help people with who i talk to on other forums that need advice,If people didn't share information such as on here things would not progress to some point .Now I'm not saying give all your secrets away on the computer

[Don Noon]

It's not that the general public is too stupid to understand the central issues of some science; the problem is that the scientific community is too lazy (or doesn't know how) to communicate with the general public.

The problem is that science is BOOOORRRRRINNNGGG, no matter how you try to communicate. Take a look at the "trending now" list on the Yahoo home page: dominated by names of celebreties or other titilating topics. The general public might not be too stupid to understand science, but the interest is not there. Even though I am a fairly extreme science type, I can understand this attitude... I have a very hard time staying awake during even the most fabulous scientific programs, but put on an Arnold movie, mystery, or comedy, and my eyes stay open. Science is usually stuff without a plot, protagonist, antagonist, action, and other standard blockbuster requirements.

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic:

Most of the good observations have already been posted about the voluntary atmosphere that should prevail, with no hard feelings about withholding anything. However, the message of "I know but won't tell you because I think you should do research yourself" has an irritating ring of superiority to it, even though it may not be intended. That said, I think John keeps his secrets about as well as Hagrid; a little checking into what he said in the past will usually turn up the "secret" .

I'm wrestling too with the way to handle whatever I find in my wood processing experimentation. It's a significant investment in time and equipment, and maybe in the future it will become an advantage which I should keep for myself. Even if I had no intention of competing with other makers or making a profit, I think it would just feel funny to spell out all the details (there's also stuff in my garage that I'll never use and has no market value, but I can't give that away, either). I definitely would not use it as a carrot or stick to try to reform the ways of the unscientific.

[Johnmasters]

I think the same for violin making. For me it is the pursuit of the sound. For others it may be the pursuit of the aesthetics, the corners, purfling, scrolls, yes the varnish, all of which don't excite me that much. But if you provide the entire Cremonese recipe, I will spend more time at my fly fishing forums.

Roger,

I think for me it is more curiosity than anything. I never believed in magic, but I have seen some very clever magic tricks that turned out to have very simple explanations, things that are totally unexpected because of misdirection. The old Cremona violins likely have more than one interesting property that has caused them to be prized. But I would like to have some ideas about it.

It is a quest. More importantly, nearly anything worth doing is a quest. It is fun to find a good question. That is likely to be more informative than just the answer. In other words, your last statement means that you would have ONLY your fly fishing forums to entertain you.

[Bill Yacey]

It's really a simple matter of "If you don't want to discuss it, don't bring it up in a discussion."

[Johnmasters]

well jefferey i well respect your position being the moderator and all but there is one problem, if no knowledgeable repairman/makers share anything were kind of stuck with a lot of newbies, rank amateurs ready to share everything, and if the professionals let bad advice go uncorrected we really have a net negative effect for the forum, not that its quite that bad right now, but i see all kinds of cr4p; glue bass bars with wood glue, questionable varnishes and finishes, overuse of sandpaper etc, if this forum is going to grow and prosper we need some positve input from professionals to sort of weed through the amateur stuff, otherwise whats the point; a social network where everyone hates each other i hope not, opinions

Right, I would like to hear from the pros too. I think the hysteresis idea is something that could be tested with spectra, that is it should leave a different spectrum than viscous damping. Don Noon would be a person who could give an opinion here, perhaps.