body stop length

[Allan Speers]

Make sure that the joint between the fingerboard and nut aligns vertically with the chin. Even average players are quite sensitive to the position of the nut in relation to the chin. This is definitely what this person perceived, and had nothing to do with the stop/string length.

As both a player, and as someone about to decide on how to fix a badly setup fiddle, I have been thinking hard on this, and I believe Jacob is 100% correct. Here's my thinking:

Someone else wrote about players perceiving arm angle. Maybe that's a small part of it, but I don't think it's the main mental guide. I PERSONALLY seem to find first position, assuming I'm STARTING in first position, by first letting my hand hit the pegbox. This happens almost imperceptibly, but it happens. So, the exact orientation of the nut is indeed critical.

If the client had been noticing a change in scale length, IN FIRST POSITION, that would be pretty impressive. With a 2mm shorter scale length, the difference in where you'd have to place you 1st or 2nd finger, in first position, would probably be less than 1/20th of a mm. No one has that kind of physical control, let alone mental acuity.

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Now, in FIFTH position, one can definitely feel a 2mm difference in scale-length. That's why my big hands prefer a 330mm scale length. And btw, a longer scale length makes it easier to play in tune, once you get used to it.

Also, again, I think the correct neck-stop length is critical for 5th position. One might also consider / adjust how thick the neck-heel is, but the treble-side body edge is more important. I suppose that in a "problem" violin, one might also consider modifying the amount of top overhang in that area, but that would obviously be a "no other options" modification.

[Allan Speers]

BTW-

Why do luthiers talk about the stop ratio, instead of neck-stop to scale-length ratio? Isn't the latter is what counts. The former is at the mercy of bridge height, plus what idiot would just mindlessly mount a bridge at the notches, without measuring the actual vibrating string length?

Maybe it's just because you get that nice, easy to remember 2:3 ratio with the body stop?

Why not just call it the "neck stop ratio" and have it apply to the scale length instead of body stop? That would yield the following formula, where NS = neck stop length, and SL = scale length :

NS X 2.523 = SL

- Not very sexy, but more accurate, as the bridge height & nut position are out of the equation.

So, for my problem fiddle with it's 132mm neck stop, I can easily see that for fifth-position to feel right to my hand, I'd want a scale length of 333mm. Since that's too long even for me, it's time for some major surgery.

Based on Jacob's thoughts, I don't want to mess with the nut or pegbox, so assuming I really wanted to make this "just right" with a 328 - 330mm scale length, I think I'd have two choices: Remove & modify the neck, so it sits further inside the "body" (it's an e-violin) or somehow build-up the edge of the body & heel. That first idea may not be horrendously difficult.

[JimMurphy]

Why do luthiers talk about the stop ratio, instead of neck-stop to scale-length ratio? ... assuming I really wanted to make this "just right" with a 328 - 330mm scale length

Without going into any further detail, Allan, I'll point out it appears you're using scale length and string length interchangeably. They are different entities. Something to think about.

Jim

[Jacob]

It is perhaps likely that the original poster may at this stage imagine that the problem which he mentioned is of a seriously intractable nature. Not detracting from the many other interesting side issues which came to light during the course of this thread, and without in any way denigrating any contributions by anyboby to this thread, I would like to summarize:

A very specific problem was mentioned.

I replied that I have encountered this before.

And that I was able to fix it.

I suggested a simple, quick and reversible test: pad the chin in some way or other to get it in line with the nut/fingerboard joint, and test the result with the same player.

The issues about string/neck/body stop lengths and ratios DO NOT apply to this very specific problem. Nor does the size of the player or the player's hands. Don't discount these factors in other matters, but they DO NOT apply to this question.

Theorizing or quoting "the sources" by themselves don't solve this kind of problem.

I mean, how easy can an experiment get?

[Allan Speers]

Without going into any further detail, Allan, I'll point out it appears you're using scale length and string length interchangeably. They are different entities. Something to think about.

Jim

??

Scale length = the length of the vibrating string, no? ( I just looked it up to double-check & be sure this wasn't a "guitar vs violin" thing) That's how I'm using the term. I never once wrote "string length."

I'm curious, though, what you are referring to. Perhaps the fact that a bridge can be moved, and f-notches cannot? If so, it doesn't change the strict definition. Each violin is made to have a very specific bridge placement. If you move the bridge, you throw-off the intonation, but you DO change the scale length, at the expense of a different feel in 5th position.

Is my thinking wrong on this?