body stop length

[skiingfiddler]

I remember playing a violin by Terry Borman in which the neck root (the part of the neck that attaches to back plate button and to the top block) was shaped so that the root was rather slender up above the button at where the left thumb would stay hooked as you shifted upward, and the root flared out larger as it approached the button. The button area was substantial, larger in cross section that the area where the thumb hooks. That felt very good. It allowed for a bit more reach to the upper positions and you still felt the neck was solidly attached to button and top block.

Check out the side views on the following Borman webpage, especially of the 1999 Jaime Laredo violin about 3/4ths of the way down the page:

Borman violins

[go_oa]

I have seen several kids move up from 1/2 => 3/4 or 3/4 => 4/4.

Some kids play in tune immediatly. Others keep the old finger

spacings. The finger-ear connection can kick in very early.

[Mike Spencer]

I'm having a hard time understanding what that statement means. I took it to mean that in 1st position (ie, with the base of the 1st finger at the nut) the player felt like she had to stretch her individual fingers out farther, farther toward the bridge, than she's used to in order to play in tune.

I think Jacob took it to mean something quite different, namely that when the player places hand in 1st position with regard to the nut, with no regard to fingers being placed down, the player felt like her hand is farther up the neck (toward the bridge) than she is used to. This would not necessarily mean she has to stretch the fingers out farther than she's used to.

With my interpretation, nut position isn't important unless the nut is too far to the north, in which case bringing the nut farther south would shorten string length and make finger stretches consequently easier.

With Jacob's interpretation, the nut could not be too far north; it's assumed to be too far south to begin with.

So, the question is, was the player complaining about where the basic first position is as determined by the position of the base of first finger against the nut (Jacob's interpretation) or was the player complaining about the stretches the fingers have to make in 1st position (my interpretation). Given the numbers provided in relation to scroll chin, it looks like Jacob's interpretation is more likely, but maybe MikeS can confirm that.

I'm a little confussed too but that's not bothersome because I'm trying to better understand these things. So, in fact these 2 instruments are my #1 and 2 built by me and the young lady played both of them and I still have them. What the player commented on was that she prefered that the stops for the first position be a little closer to the nut so that when she played in second and third position she didn't have to reach as far towards the bridge in those higher up positions.

Here's some more information about the instruments if thats helpful. #1 is based on the 1666 N. Amati from the Strad poster. I used the C&J book as my building guide. The top plate length is 352, the neck stop is 130 and the body stop is 195, the string length is 329 to the center of the bridge. As stated earlier the chin is north of the fingerboard/nut joint by 1.5 mm. I think I understand what Jacob is saying about the nut/chin position but (right or wrong) it seems to me like the chin is mostly just a reference point for the player to easily reestablish hand position when moving up and down the fingerboard. #2 is based on the Stradivari Kruse, the top plate length is 354, body stop is 195, neck stop is 130, string length is 329 to the center of the brigde. I play these fiddles all the time and the first position stop positions (ie. B note on the A string) are a very similar distance from the fingerboard/nut joint. Is it reasonable to expect this considering the consistency of the stop measurements between the two instruments?

I think my questions are, 1) during the building phase do folks actively manage the body stop or neck stop to manipulate the position of the stops for the first position? If so how and why? 2) do folks just deal with this during the set up of the instrument? 3) if one is referencing a Strad poster for building a particular instrument why not just use the recorded body stop lengths that are documented? 4) Why do we see so much variation of where the f nicks are placed on any classic italian instrument from bass side compared to the treble side and between different instrument of any maker? I'm not trying to be contrary at all just working hard to understand.

[NewNewbie]

I remember playing a violin by Terry Borman in which the neck root (the part of the neck that attaches to back plate button and to the top block) was shaped so that the root was rather slender up above the button at where the left thumb would stay hooked as you shifted upward, and the root flared out larger as it approached the button. The button area was substantial, larger in cross section that the area where the thumb hooks. That felt very good. It allowed for a bit more reach to the upper positions and you still felt the neck was solidly attached to button and top block.

Check out the side views on the following Borman webpage, especially of the 1999 Jaime Laredo violin about 3/4ths of the way down the page:

Borman violins

Here is a more direct link.

laredo-side-8.jpg

I wonder why it's not done in any of the other instruments after 1999?

Terry Borman's site also has a list of set-up dimensions.

Set-up Dimensions

"The neck dimensions that I use are generally a bit smaller than other shops. I have altered these dimensions due to consistent requests from players." - Terry Borman

[NewNewbie]

Ran into this thread doing a search.

www.maestronet.com - "Violin neck heel angle?"

"The measurement down the back of the neck (if that's the inch measure you named) isn't standard, either. From the nut/board junction to the leading edge of the top (the space the hand moves it) should be 130mm, and this is very critical to the player. The measurement down the back just "happens" if everything else is right, I guess, but I've never measured it, though I know it's a popular measure with American amateurs (another is the string length--no one I know in the professional violin business has much awareness of string length--it's what you get when you do everything else correctly, that's all). While I'm at it, let me say that a number of makers (me, too) are placing the nut 1mm or so downstream from parallel with the back bottom of the scroll, to give a little more hand clearance. That's contrary with a long-standing convention of placing the back of the scroll even with the nut/board joint." - Michael Darnton post #5

[skiingfiddler]

I wonder why it's not done in any of the other instruments after 1999?

I think it is done in instruments after 1999. It looks like it's there in the 2009 instruments, just not as strongly as in the 1999 Jamie Laredo. (Link to Borman violins in post # 26, above.)

(By the way, I won't link to an image which does not contain text by the owner of that image indicating where and what that image is. So, I won't link to those 2009 images directly in isolation because they are not identified in isolation.)

Terry Borman's site also has a list of set-up dimensions.

Set-up Dimensions

"The neck dimensions that I use are generally a bit smaller than other shops. I have altered these dimensions due to consistent requests from players." - Terry Borman

Some of Borman's width and thickness dimensions for the neck might be a bit smaller, but the length dimension he gives (the one dimension we're concerned about) is the standard 130.

[Jacob]

I'm a little confussed too but that's not bothersome because I'm trying to better understand these things. So, in fact these 2 instruments are my #1 and 2 built by me and the young lady played both of them and I still have them. What the player commented on was that she prefered that the stops for the first position be a little closer to the nut so that when she played in second and third position she didn't have to reach as far towards the bridge in those higher up positions.

Here's some more information about the instruments if thats helpful. #1 is based on the 1666 N. Amati from the Strad poster. I used the C&J book as my building guide. The top plate length is 352, the neck stop is 130 and the body stop is 195, the string length is 329 to the center of the bridge. As stated earlier the chin is north of the fingerboard/nut joint by 1.5 mm. I think I understand what Jacob is saying about the nut/chin position but (right or wrong) it seems to me like the chin is mostly just a reference point for the player to easily reestablish hand position when moving up and down the fingerboard. #2 is based on the Stradivari Kruse, the top plate length is 354, body stop is 195, neck stop is 130, string length is 329 to the center of the brigde. I play these fiddles all the time and the first position stop positions (ie. B note on the A string) are a very similar distance from the fingerboard/nut joint. Is it reasonable to expect this considering the consistency of the stop measurements between the two instruments?

I think my questions are, 1) during the building phase do folks actively manage the body stop or neck stop to manipulate the position of the stops for the first position? If so how and why? 2) do folks just deal with this during the set up of the instrument? 3) if one is referencing a Strad poster for building a particular instrument why not just use the recorded body stop lengths that are documented? 4) Why do we see so much variation of where the f nicks are placed on any classic italian instrument from bass side compared to the treble side and between different instrument of any maker? I'm not trying to be contrary at all just working hard to understand.

Hi Mike,

If the neck is 130mm and the stop 195mm, the positions of the notes on the fingerboard will be according to that. That is why you perceive that the two violins "play the same" - what else would one expect? I don't know of any way to manipulate the positions of the notes if those two parameters are as indicated.

The only difference between the two violins of yours for that part of the instrument seems to be the position of the chin. I think your interpretation of the player's complaint is perhaps not entirely in accord with what she perceived - one certainly can't fix it so that the first-position stops are "closer to the nut".

All one can do is go by your measurements and the laws of acoustics and physics. The only reason why I responded to your initial question is because I've had an exactly similar experience, during which I initially came close to losing my temper with the customer, because the vital measurements on the instrument were exactly correct. After the neck graft, for which I used the same fingerboard as before, NOTHING regarding the parameters were changed - the neck length (fingerboard from nut to belly edge) and the stop were both EXACTLY what they were before. Absolutely the only thing which changed was the position of the chin.

To recap - the answer to your question: no, with a specific neck- and stop length the notes will fall where they fall, there is nothing one can do to change that.

The answer to the question you didn't ask - the problem in this specific instance is the position of the chin.

[skiingfiddler]

Ran into this thread doing a search.

www.maestronet.com - "Violin neck heel angle?"

"The measurement down the back of the neck (if that's the inch measure you named) isn't standard, either. From the nut/board junction to the leading edge of the top (the space the hand moves it) should be 130mm, and this is very critical to the player. The measurement down the back just "happens" if everything else is right, I guess, but I've never measured it, though I know it's a popular measure with American amateurs (another is the string length--no one I know in the professional violin business has much awareness of string length--it's what you get when you do everything else correctly, that's all). While I'm at it, let me say that a number of makers (me, too) are placing the nut 1mm or so downstream from parallel with the back bottom of the scroll, to give a little more hand clearance. That's contrary with a long-standing convention of placing the back of the scroll even with the nut/board joint." - Michael Darnton post #5

The line in that Michael Darnton post that I think is important relative to string length is: "another is the string length--no one I know in the professional violin business has much awareness of string length--it's what you get when you do everything else correctly, that's all"

I've never found a vibrating string length greater than 329, and usually 328, (measured to the point where string first contacts the front of the bridge, not to the middle and not to the back of the bridge) when neck length is at or less than 130 and bridge placement distance from the top edge (ie, current functioning body stop) is at or less than 195 (where the measurement is to the center of the width of the bridge foot, and not to the front or the back of the bridge foot).

I can understand that violin makers concern themselves with neck lengths and body stops, and not with string lengths. String lengths don't exist until the whole fiddle is done. The maker is going to have to worry about the components that determine string length, not string length, itself, because those components are made separately from one another and then put together to make a completed fiddle.

What I, as a player, worry about is how the finished fiddle works for me, and that's with a string length of 328. Luckily for me, if the maker sticks to a 130 neck and a functioning body stop (ie, bridge placement) of 195 (or less), and the bridge is within normal range for height, that will result in a vibrating string length of 328 (or less) most of the time, but probably not as long as 330.

[skiingfiddler]

What the player commented on was that she prefered that the stops for the first position be a little closer to the nut so that when she played in second and third position she didn't have to reach as far towards the bridge in those higher up positions.

It sounds like the player is simply saying that nut and bridge are too far apart for her tastes, ie the vibrating string length is too long. So, shortening it should solve the issue. (I don't have the experience to say anything about nut placement relative to scroll chin on this issue.)

The top plate length is 352, the neck stop is 130 and the body stop is 195, the string length is 329 to the center of the bridge.

The above neck length, body stop and resulting string length sound very normal. (Assuming you would measure string length to the front edge of the bridge where string first hits bridge and not to the center, you would get a string length of 328.3 mm (with a bridge that's 1.4mm thick at the top) and that's close enough to my much valued 328, even for me.)

I think my questions are, 1) during the building phase do folks actively manage the body stop or neck stop to manipulate the position of the stops for the first position? If so how and why? 2) do folks just deal with this during the set up of the instrument? 3) if one is referencing a Strad poster for building a particular instrument why not just use the recorded body stop lengths that are documented? 4) Why do we see so much variation of where the f nicks are placed on any classic italian instrument from bass side compared to the treble side and between different instrument of any maker? I'm not trying to be contrary at all just working hard to understand.

I'm not a maker, so I have no business answering the above questions with any authority. But here's my try anyway:

1. You control body stop and neck length during the building process, and, as Michael Darnton stated, vibrating string length, which controls where the fingers will fall, will take care of itself.

2. During setup you can tweak bridge position a little bit to vary from intended body stop (maybe a mm or 2 from intended position, as set by f-hole ticks), if that tweaking gets you better tonal results or better comfort as determined by you or your client.

3 & 4. Body stop as originally set by f-hole ticks are all over the place in classic Italian instruments. There apparently was no standardization. Even within Stradivari's golden period (where supposedly he had settled on some final form) body stops vary quite a bit, as I remember, by as much as 3 mm (195 to 198). So, don't use the body stop given in a Strad poster. They are probably offering what the original body stop is assumed to be. Stick with a body stop that is acceptable today, namely 195, and you can go as short as 193, if you have reason to.

Here's my post (Dec 16, 2008) about Strad dimensions, including body stops, from an earlier thread:

I'm in no way deprecating long Strads or the long Strad model. Jeff Manthos entered a long Strad model in the 2004 VSA competition, and I thought it was a wonderful sounding instrument.

The differences in dimensions of the long Strads and the later Strads are interesting. Here are some numbers taken from the Appendices of ANTONIO STRADIVARI: THE CREMONA EXHIBITION OF 1987, Charles Beare, 1993:

Violin/length of back/upper bout width/middle bout width/lower bout width/body stop, in mm

1692 Bennett................/363/161/104.3/202/199

1693 Harrison.............../362/161.5/108.4/202/198

1702 Conte de Fontana../354/167/108/206/195

1703 Emiliani.............../355/166.5/109/206.5/195

1711 Parke................../358/167.5/109.5/208/197.5

1714 Soil..................../356.5/167.5/109.5/206.5/198

Some observations from this very small sampling:

-- The long Strads are noticeably longer than the later Strads and noticeably narrower in upper and lower bouts.

-- The Harrison has a middle bout width that is "golden period."

-- Body stops in the long Strads are really long.

-- Body stops in golden period Strads are all over the place, some as long as Long Strads.

[skiingfiddler]

While I'm at it, let me say that a number of makers (me, too) are placing the nut 1mm or so downstream from parallel with the back bottom of the scroll, to give a little more hand clearance. That's contrary with a long-standing convention of placing the back of the scroll even with the nut/board joint." - Michael Darnton post #5

If I understand Michael Darnton's post correctly, if "downstream" means toward the bridge, and if "back bottom of the scroll" is the scroll chin, then it looks like some makers are placing the nut/fingerboard joint about a mm "or so" farther forward (toward the bridge) than dead even with the scroll chin.

If that's what Michael is stating, then MikeS's placement of the nut/fingerboard joint about 1.5 mm in front of the chin would not be outside the range of the acceptable.

But I may be misinterpreting Michael's post.

[NewNewbie]

I think it is done in instruments after 1999. It looks like it's there in the 2009 instruments, just not as strongly as in the 1999 Jamie Laredo. (Link to Borman violins in post # 26, above.)

I agree it looks like it was done in 1999, very slightly. So 2 out of the 6 seem to have it done. Perhaps these are for clients with small hands.

Terry Borman seems to be listening closely to his clients, and that is why I quoted him saying;

"The neck dimensions that I use are generally a bit smaller than other shops. I have altered these dimensions due to consistent requests from players.".

(By the way, I won't link to an image which does not contain text by the owner of that image indicating where and what that image is. So, I won't link to those 2009 images directly in isolation because they are not identified in isolation.)

I really don't think I am hurting anyone that provides their pictures on the internet, as they are trying to get noticed. I always try to give credit to the maker. If they want to put a 'watermark' on their pictures to protect themselves, then so be it, that's their business.

Myself, I don't glue my pants on, just a belt n' braces will do for me.

But don't worry if I did use a glue, I would use a reversible one! So can you tell me if epoxy can be reversed??? :)

Some of Terry Borman's width and thickness dimensions for the neck might be a bit smaller, but the length dimension he gives (the one dimension we're concerned about) is the standard 130.

Both violins being discussed are 130 mm so that should not be a concern here. It is that generally some players are consistently requesting for some measurements to be smaller.

I also followed up in the next post with a quote from Michael Darnton that the nut/board joint can be a little towards the bridge to give the left hand more clearance, since I was thinking that 1.5 mm for a small hand maybe too much, in this particular case, just like Terry Borman does not thin the neck thumb stop/heel all the time. I am wondering if the average player today is bigger than the average player was a few generations ago.

Some here were thinking that the nut/board joint must align with the chin of the scroll, but I think this is an example of each player is unique, and that this needs to be looked at on a 'case by case' basis.

[NewNewbie]

If I understand Michael Darnton's post correctly, if "downstream" means toward the bridge, and if "back bottom of the scroll" is the scroll chin, then it looks like some makers are placing the nut/fingerboard joint about a mm "or so" farther forward (toward the bridge) than dead even with the scroll chin.

That's my take on what's being said.

If that's what Michael is stating, then MikeS's placement of the nut/fingerboard joint about 1.5 mm in front of the chin would not be outside the range of the acceptable.

I would have to guess that if the next person to play that violin were to have big hands, then they may actually prefer the nut/board joint being down a little towards the bridge direction, for more clearance from those pesky pegheads.

This just might be a case of were a small pair of hands notices what seems to be a pea under a few dozen mattresses.

[Allan Speers]

Ran into this thread doing a search.

www.maestronet.com - "Violin neck heel angle?"

"The measurement down the back of the neck (if that's the inch measure you named) isn't standard, either. From the nut/board junction to the leading edge of the top (the space the hand moves it) should be 130mm, and this is very critical to the player.

-but that's what I was asking about earlier. 130mm all the time, or 130mm if your scale length is 328mm ?

Should this measurement be a RATIO of the actual scale-length, not a fixed number?

[NewNewbie]

Evidently, they cut the tray wrong.

I have very large hands, and so typically set my acoustic fiddles up at 330mm. I'm hoping to be able to add a shim to the Yamaha's neck, or maybe do a nut trick, or...

There are two ways of going about necks.

1- A players demands/special needs.

2- A universal set-up that matches the large majority of players.

You seem to be missing both.

If they cut the tray wrong, then I would send it back, and get one that is cut right.

If you want to pursue this question about necks, then it would behoove you to do a search under Michael Darnton's name with all the various keywords.

He has tackled this problem quite a few times.

The long and the short of it, is that there are no hard and fast rules here, when dealing with necks, and what a player says or thinks sometimes isn't always necessarily hitting the nail on the head.

So experience/judgement comes into play here big time, which just happens to be right up the creek of a Mr. Michael Darnton.

=======================

Hey Mom look I used the word 'Behoove' in a sentence today!!!! :)

[Bruce Carlson]

The differences in dimensions of the long Strads and the later Strads are interesting. Here are some numbers taken from the Appendices of ANTONIO STRADIVARI: THE CREMONA EXHIBITION OF 1987, Charles Beare, 1993:

Violin/length of back/upper bout width/middle bout width/lower bout width/body stop, in mm

1692 Bennett................/363/161/104.3/202/199

1693 Harrison.............../362/161.5/108.4/202/198

1702 Conte de Fontana../354/167/108/206/195

1703 Emiliani.............../355/166.5/109/206.5/195

1711 Parke................../358/167.5/109.5/208/197.5

1714 Soil..................../356.5/167.5/109.5/206.5/198

Some observations from this very small sampling:

-- The long Strads are noticeably longer than the later Strads and noticeably narrower in upper and lower bouts.

-- The Harrison has a middle bout width that is "golden period."

-- Body stops in the long Strads are really long.

-- Body stops in golden period Strads are all over the place, some as long as Long Strads.

Hi Skiing fiddler.

I was doing the measurements for the catalog mentioned above at night while we were having them photographed. Bear in mind that the bridge position does not always correspond exactly with the notches.

Bruce

[robertdo]

Hi Skiing fiddler.

I was doing the measurements for the catalog mentioned above at night while we were having them photographed. Bear in mind that the bridge position does not always correspond exactly with the notches.

Bruce

I was actually wondering, even if not directly in relation with the neck length, if people sometimes move the bridge 0.5-1 mm north or south to avoid having to move the soundpost 0.5-1mm south or north?

[Jacob]

Hi Mike,

If the neck is 130mm and the stop 195mm, the positions of the notes on the fingerboard will be according to that. That is why you perceive that the two violins "play the same" - what else would one expect? I don't know of any way to manipulate the positions of the notes if those two parameters are as indicated.

The only difference between the two violins of yours for that part of the instrument seems to be the position of the chin. I think your interpretation of the player's complaint is perhaps not entirely in accord with what she perceived - one certainly can't fix it so that the first-position stops are "closer to the nut".

All one can do is go by your measurements and the laws of acoustics and physics. The only reason why I responded to your initial question is because I've had an exactly similar experience, during which I initially came close to losing my temper with the customer, because the vital measurements on the instrument were exactly correct. After the neck graft, for which I used the same fingerboard as before, NOTHING regarding the parameters were changed - the neck length (fingerboard from nut to belly edge) and the stop were both EXACTLY what they were before. Absolutely the only thing which changed was the position of the chin.

To recap - the answer to your question: no, with a specific neck- and stop length the notes will fall where they fall, there is nothing one can do to change that.

The answer to the question you didn't ask - the problem in this specific instance is the position of the chin.

It might be interesting to see how the perception of the player you mentioned is affected if 1.5mm padding is temporarily stuck onto the chin...

[robertdo]

My suspicion is that the nut is too far forward, not too far back, if you carefully look at the way the complaint was phrased: "...she commented that the 1st position stops seemed further south of the nut than she cared for..."

Translation: "...further south of the CHIN than she cared for..."

It would make sense since the way the body finds the first position is mostly thanks to the arm length and the angle at the elbow. Violinist have to develop this kind of memory.

[skiingfiddler]

Hi Skiing fiddler.

I was doing the measurements for the catalog mentioned above at night while we were having them photographed. Bear in mind that the bridge position does not always correspond exactly with the notches.

Bruce

Bruce,

It's a great book and one I consult often. I see now, for the first time, that the title page states that Charles Beare collaborated with you in authoring the book.

I am assuming that the numbers in the catalog for body stop reflected Stradivari's intent for the original body stop, and not where the bridge might be standing, today.

To the list of golden period Strads that were listed in post #34, it would be worth adding from the book the 1716 Provigny with a body stop of just 193, the 1724 Sarasate with a body stop of 194, and the 1713 Gibson with a body stop of 196 (Charles Beare, 1993, ANTONIO STRADIVARI, THE CREMONA EXHIBITION OF 1987, pp. 318-20).

So, the range of body stops in Stradivari's golden period is at least 193 (1716 Provigny) to 198 (1714 Soil), and everything in between. That's a remarkably broad range.

Is there any discernible system in how Stradivari determined body stop?

[robertdo]

But weren't the necks of most violins of the 17th and 18th century remade with different sizes, different stops, etc..?

[Johnmasters]

What a great thread. A copy of this is going in my notebook.

Stay tuned.

Mike

What is the greater error? Having the bridge not at the inner nicks or having the inner nicks slightly displaced ? I always postpone the inner nicks until the violin is strung up. I usually string it up in the white, so making the nicks at that point works out.

[skiingfiddler]

-but that's what I was asking about earlier. 130mm all the time, or 130mm if your scale length is 328mm ?

Should this measurement be a RATIO of the actual scale-length, not a fixed number?

Hope some actual violin makers and dealers give you an answer.

From what I've seen, it's 130mm all the time, regardless of vibrating string length and intended body stop, if a full size fiddle is being made for the non-specific, typical player. That works because of the very small variation in body stop in violins made for the non-specific, typical player (195, with an occasionally shorter body stop of up to 193.)

But that doesn't mean that someone who wants to build a violin from scratch for the exceptionally small or large hand might not tweak (maybe by a couple of mm) neck length to be a little bit smaller or larger than 130. That bit of a tweak of neck length along with a little tweak in body stop (bridge position) could add up to a considerable divergence from 328-29 in vibrating string, maybe as much as 324 on the short side.

But if you, as a dealer, had a fiddle 130 x 195 x string length 328-9, and someone with a small hand who wanted that specific fiddle was having trouble with the reaches, you might accommodate that player by moving the bridge and/or nut toward each other a bit to create a shorter vibrating string length, without cutting a shorter neck or cutting new f-hole ticks.

That's my understanding and experience. It may need correction by people with more experience.

David Van Zandt in Seattle has made a del Gesu model with a neck length shorter than 130 and a body stop shorter than 195. Here's a thread in which Jeffrey Holmes discusses Van Zandt's smaller violins, and the links in the thread to images and info on Van Zandt's small violins still work:

Thread with info on small Van Zandt violins

[Wm. Johnston]

I was actually wondering, even if not directly in relation with the neck length, if people sometimes move the bridge 0.5-1 mm north or south to avoid having to move the soundpost 0.5-1mm south or north?

I do this as long as the string lengths and stops end up close enough to normal. I also adjust the bridge side to side in order to adjust the tone a bit too. This is only done on new violins that I build though, I wouldn't want to do it on an old violin with fragile varnish or indentations worn into the top by the bridge feet.

[fiddlecollector]

But weren't the necks of most violins of the 17th and 18th century remade with different sizes, different stops, etc..?

Yes your correct. The necks were generally shorter (but not always),so the string length of these big 198-200 mm body stop violins would have probably had a shorter string length than they have now.

The lengths of necks have probably changed several times on some instruments depending on the area of the world they were in at the time and the players preference. French violins (even late ones )often have short body stops (190-193)and often normal (current) 130mm necks

[skiingfiddler]

Yes your correct. The necks were generally shorter (but not always),so the string length of these big 198-200 mm body stop violins would have probably had a shorter string length than they have now.

The lengths of necks have probably changed several times on some instruments depending on the area of the world they were in at the time and the players preference. French violins (even late ones )often have short body stops (190-193)and often normal (current) 130mm necks

For the 17th and 18th centuries, that raises a really interesting speculation: That in their original form, neck lengths varied considerably from one instrument to the next, even for the same maker within the same period of time. Perhaps the classic Italians were sizing their fiddles for various customers not by body length but by neck length, or maybe the making of necks was not done with great care, and thus their lengths varied.

While neck lengths were different from one fiddle to the next, the body of a maker's fiddles was kept close to the same length from one fiddle to the next.

The other constant factor was vibrating string length, which could only be kept constant from one fiddle to the next by having a different body stop when the maker changed (as he often did) the neck length.

This is pure speculation, but it would explain the seemingly capricious variations in body stops.

Is there any solid support or refutation for this speculation?