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jezzupe

Any thoughts?

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Does any one have any ideas on this? It has no label. Thanks

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ttachment=8394:old4.jpg]post-24788-1279067779_thumb.jpg

How symmetrical does it look when held on its side and viewed down the length of the instrument from scroll to end button, Jezzupe? Not that symmetry is a guarantee of an outside mould and therefore more likely French than German origins, but it is the first thing I would look for. If it is not symmetrical, not likely to be French. If it is, not necessarily French. :)

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How symmetrical does it look when held on its side and viewed down the length of the instrument from scroll to end button, Jezzupe? Not that symmetry is a guarantee of an outside mould and therefore more likely French than German origins, but it is the first thing I would look for. If it is not symmetrical, not likely to be French. If it is, not necessarily French. :)

I'm not sure exactly how you are suggest to view it, but it is quite "even" with everything, there are some asymmetry''s here and there. It does not have a neck graft { not that someone could not replace the entire neck and heel} how old does it look based on the varnish? It has a waxy dull thickness with lightly pronounced rippled reeds with some texture and chunks of grit in the varnish, as seen with that one close up.

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I'm not sure exactly how you are suggest to view it, but it is quite "even" with everything, there are some asymmetry''s here and there. It does not have a neck graft { not that someone could not replace the entire neck and heel} how old does it look based on the varnish? It has a waxy dull thickness with lightly pronounced rippled reeds with some texture and chunks of grit in the varnish, as seen with that one close up.

If you hold the violin by the neck with the back and front of the instrument facing the walls of the room in which you are standing/sitting, look down the length along the rib structure. If an outside mould was used, typical of French making, then the mitres of the upper and lower bouts with the c-bout should run parallel to each other (and perpendicular to the plate edges). If they are not aligned -- one or the other or both are not perpendicular to the edges of the plates --, then it is unlikely that an outside mould was used and it is more likely (though not definitively) German than French. Hope this helps!

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Gotta get that steel woold out of the peg holes... looks like my inner ear. :)

The varnish looks thick - sorry I can't be of more/any help!

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Gotta get that steel woold out of the peg holes... looks like my inner ear. :)

The varnish looks thick - sorry I can't be of more/any help!

Bread crumbs left behind for the observant :)

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Its pretty straight, so perhaps French, thanks for your opinion

I didn't read your post literally, but in case others might, I wanted to be clear that some of us in the MN community would not venture an opinion even on the country of origin of an instrument solely based on photos. Speaking for myself, all I feel qualified to do in this situation is to offer suggestions of characteristics to look for and the directions in which those characteristics might lead someone who has an instrument in their hands. Thanks again, Jezzupe, for the opportunity to engage the noggin on this one!

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Well, I did'nt think anyone would fall into my trap, but I thought I would try to have some innocent fun...

I admit it....its one of mine, the finish is less than a week old...

I thought I would build a "traditional one" again, I've only done a few, admittedly, they take much more time because of the scroll and all this "copying" of measurements and templates and such. And when I do mine they would just look dumb with an antique finish, so I did this one so I could do the "old look". I used my friend old Violin as a "gauge" so much of the dimensions, scroll, and arching are based on that.

The varnish system trying to mimic "that old look" was what I really built it for, so I could do that.

Its a very light shellac sealer, then "distressed" and then a alkyd based stain/varnish glazed on, with the real magic being tobacco ash/coals in water as the blackening agent. Its not strung up , and probably won't be for awhile, the varnish needs to cure, do not want to judge the sound until it is hard, for example the Jhole was judges by me a bit early, it has got better as the finish has cured, it being spirit hardens much quicker than this alkyd oil base.

So I guess my question would be...

"what do you think of my antique job?"

I hope no one is upset, I was just having some fun seeing if I could get someone to "go down a road"......ah' but the "maestronetters" are far to sharp for any of that ballyhoo' :)

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Well, I did'nt think anyone would fall into my trap, but I thought I would try to have some innocent fun...

I admit it....its one of mine, the finish is less than a week old...

I thought I would build a "traditional one" again, I've only done a few, admittedly, they take much more time because of the scroll and all this "copying" of measurements and templates and such. And when I do mine they would just look dumb with an antique finish, so I did this one so I could do the "old look". I used my friend old Violin as a "gauge" so much of the dimensions, scroll, and arching are based on that.

The varnish system trying to mimic "that old look" was what I really built it for, so I could do that.

Its a very light shellac sealer, then "distressed" and then a alkyd based stain/varnish glazed on, with the real magic being tobacco ash/coals in water as the blackening agent. Its not strung up , and probably won't be for awhile, the varnish needs to cure, do not want to judge the sound until it is hard, for example the Jhole was judges by me a bit early, it has got better as the finish has cured, it being spirit hardens much quicker than this alkyd oil base.

So I guess my question would be...

"what do you think of my antique job?"

I hope no one is upset, I was just having some fun seeing if I could get someone to "go down a road"......ah' but the "maestronetters" are far to sharp for any of that ballyhoo' :)

Aha! An inside-moulder masquerading as an outside-moulder! You never would have fooled Poirot!

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Well, I did'nt think anyone would fall into my trap, but I thought I would try to have some innocent fun...

I admit it....its one of mine, the finish is less than a week old...

I thought I would build a "traditional one" again, I've only done a few, admittedly, they take much more time because of the scroll and all this "copying" of measurements and templates and such. And when I do mine they would just look dumb with an antique finish, so I did this one so I could do the "old look". I used my friend old Violin as a "gauge" so much of the dimensions, scroll, and arching are based on that.

The varnish system trying to mimic "that old look" was what I really built it for, so I could do that.

Its a very light shellac sealer, then "distressed" and then a alkyd based stain/varnish glazed on, with the real magic being tobacco ash/coals in water as the blackening agent. Its not strung up , and probably won't be for awhile, the varnish needs to cure, do not want to judge the sound until it is hard, for example the Jhole was judges by me a bit early, it has got better as the finish has cured, it being spirit hardens much quicker than this alkyd oil base.

So I guess my question would be...

"what do you think of my antique job?"

I hope no one is upset, I was just having some fun seeing if I could get someone to "go down a road"......ah' but the "maestronetters" are far to sharp for any of that ballyhoo' :)

I for one did not respond because it is a typical garden variety "old attic fiddle" but many things very well done. Like modern Chinese. You certainly did not make it. IF you did and got it to look so close to an attic fiddle, you need to do the same thing with a copy of a valuable instrument. You will certainly become rich.

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I for one did not respond because it is a typical garden variety "old attic fiddle" but many things very well done. Like modern Chinese. You certainly did not make it. IF you did and got it to look so close to an attic fiddle, you need to do the same thing with a copy of a valuable instrument. You will certainly become rich.

Oh it's mine...if you like I will do a photo step by step of the finish process on a pice of wood, the key is the cig goop and my bumpy dolomite rock...

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My gut reaction was Chinese, and it was due to too many antiquing tap marks... the steel wool let me in on your little secret. :) I like the clumps of crud on the scroll, but would expect to see that kind of black gunk on the end and around the top near/under the fingerboard, and with less height on it. I don't think I've seen real tap marks on button... usually just in the areas where a bow would hit, or a button on a shirt or collar would be pressed.

I agree that the flatness of the workmanship looks like a french import. I have one right now, lined up for some varnish tests.

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Well since my lasy post I have been woking on the sample board,its actually mostly done, but I need to do 2 more varnish coats, so when its done I'll post a play by play with pictures attached explaining the process....

Burk, I am 1/2 Fench you know....wee'wee wee' wee' :)

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Oh it's mine...if you like I will do a photo step by step of the finish process on a pice of wood, the key is the cig goop and my bumpy dolomite rock...

Was it a stripped violin? I think your edge work at the corner looks too slick for an amateur. It is not wonderful, but it is so typical of many factory violins, that if you can give that impression so convincingly, you are very clever indeed.

OK, it is your varnish. I can see it is not so great. But please tell us if you made this from slabs of wood.

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Was it a stripped violin? I think your edge work at the corner looks too slick for an amateur. It is not wonderful, but it is so typical of many factory violins, that if you can give that impression so convincingly, you are very clever indeed.

OK, it is your varnish. I can see it is not so great. But please tell us if you made this from slabs of wood.

Yes I made it from "raw" wood....Please keep in mind the "details" on a "traditional" violin are nothing but time...I build one of my "regular" "things" in about a week and a half if I work it every day for about 4-6 hours...so about 40-60 hours total....this one was started in March and has about 500-600 hours in it...One of the reasons a traditional violin takes so long is the edgework and the scroll, and to make it look right it must be done with chisels....My normal violins are not made with chisels, the "scroll" are purposely made to be made with the tools I work with, they are very fast, but do not obviously work to make scrolls, flutes and such...

now with all this said and done....my violins sound as good if not better than a traditional ones in a 10th of the time...

I have absolutely no desire to

1. Copy Italian violins, it is what everyone does

2. I find design flaws in the "traditional" design...and find the look redundant....imo

3.Bog myself down with details trying to achieve a "traditional" look that can be purchased for $100, when all I care about is sound and playability....I can work very clean, as seen here or loose and fast....I like loose and fast because I like the results better, both because more gets done, and I like things that look hand made....this violin, in order to make it look traditional, required much more time than I usually put into making one, here again perfection is just time or doing something over again if its not good enough...ie more time

I appreciate the world of copying traditional violins ,be it specific ones or just the form...its just not my bag....I don't have the patience for it....my quest for MANY good sounding violins will not be achieved scraping re curves for 10 hours a day till its just so and photo copying scrolls to paste on my stock and lovingly nip away at it....as cool as all that stuff is...it hasn't much to do with the sound, it slows me down and I have no interest in it, in general...

so sorry if you don't believe me, I didn't take pictures when I made it, I have no "proof"...

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Yes I made it from "raw" wood....Please keep in mind the "details" on a "traditional" violin are nothing but time...I build one of my "regular" "things" in about a week and a half if I work it every day for about 4-6 hours...so about 40-60 hours total....this one was started in March and has about 500-600 hours in it...One of the reasons a traditional violin takes so long is the edgework and the scroll, and to make it look right it must be done with chisels....My normal violins are not made with chisels, the "scroll" are purposely made to be made with the tools I work with, they are very fast, but do not obviously work to make scrolls, flutes and such...

now with all this said and done....my violins sound as good if not better than a traditional ones in a 10th of the time...

jezzupe,

Now that your secret is out, I would really be interested in (1) knowing what the violin is that you copied, and (2) if possible, seeing side by side photos.

Other than the excessive tap marks, it looks like you probably did a good job, but the original info and comp photo's would be really great, even though the "new" antiqued finish would most probably look different than the "old" antique finish. It would be great to see both the differences and similarities.

-----Barry

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jezzupe,

Now that your secret is out, I would really be interested in (1) knowing what the violin is that you copied, and (2) if possible, seeing side by side photos.

Other than the excessive tap marks, it looks like you probably did a good job, but the original info and comp photo's would be really great, even though the "new" antiqued finish would most probably look different than the "old" antique finish. It would be great to see both the differences and similarities.

-----Barry

Well its like this...

The arching and over all shape is taken from another "traditional one I did, that one was taken from a well made Chinese fiddle...that's the shape part of it...the finish was inspired by my friends German workshop fiddle and the stolen roger hargrave fiddle pics, particularly the bridge foot wear, really not trying to copy the look as much as just the old funk....My friends violin is naturally "SUPER" funky and has lots of rosin gunk and stains, it almost makes mine look....clean....

I will take some pics soon and post my two, the earlier one has much nicer wood for the back and is one piece, but you will see that they are almost identical within the shape, edge work and over look. the ff holes are different than the older one but other than that they are very similar, almost as if done by the same guy :) ...I'll try to get pics of the German fiddle too....its....super funky....I'm not sure if there's and inch without some dents on it or gunk built up.

edit....some of the scroll and neck dimensions are from the german fiddle....

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Haven't been on for a while so missed most of this. I was going to say that the back looked vaguely French but the front didn't belong to the fiddle. Nothing about it matched the look of the back. Now that I know the whole thing was made from different designs from different countries and the ffs are your own, that explains all :-)

PS

You had me fooled about the age after a first quick scan of the pics. I thought it was a bit older than it is.

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The pegbox, wood and ffs threw me for a loop as well... I have a scottish violin with a similar look. Perhaps you are Scottish and French. :)

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So, here is the finish process. This took way longer to sift and process the pics than it did to make the board....

The start...raw board, quite uv tan, this is Fir, so it is quite orange compared to the Spruce with is much whiter

post-24788-1279252361_thumb.jpg

Step 1. The board is unevenly coated with a light stain.

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Step 2. The board is the coated with a darker stain, you are not trying to completely coat the board, just some. For dark spot and streaks, allow the stain to pool as shown

post-24788-1279252482_thumb.jpg

Step 3. Let it dry for a bit and then sand most of it off, In this example I am using 50 grit followed by 80, generally smoother grits for violins.

post-24788-1279252524_thumb.jpg

Step 4. The board is then coated with a thin coat of wax free shellac, this shot shows my rocks and the file I use for the bridge foot wear, note it is about as wide as a foot.

post-24788-1279252561_thumb.jpg

Step 5. The board is then "distressed" by rolling and mashing the rock into the wood, scratching is ok too, but must be done tastefully, it is hard to make it not look contrived as Ian stated. This shot shows the sand paper and the ashtray goop{oh' joy}...After the rock mashing, the goo has water added to it to make a thin paste, it is then rubbed in by hand and then allowed to dry some, as shown, then wiped of with a dry damp cloth.

post-24788-1279252632_thumb.jpgpost-24788-1279252686_thumb.jpgpost-24788-1279252743_thumb.jpgpost-24788-1279252794_thumb.jpg

Step 6. Shows the first coat of varnish

post-24788-1279252858_thumb.jpg

Step 7. shows one more coat applied, this coat has a little more red in it than the first, after it has set for about 5 min, I stand back, 3-4 ft., with a can of deft and shoot one cloud over the board so just a light ,light mist of lacquer falls on it, this adds little bumps here and there and also slightly wrinkles the finish as shown

post-24788-1279252913_thumb.jpg

Step 7a. shows the board after dry, then lightly smoothed with steel wool, if you want "burn marks" or wear through simply sand a little harder in swill motions, pumice can work to feather it out. I won't g into wear through much, that is a separate subject.

post-24788-1279252952_thumb.jpg

Final step. One more varnish coat is applied, allowed to dry over night, and then the board is rubbed down with the cig goop one last time in order to dull and grunge the finish. It makes a very nice rubbing compound too...

post-24788-1279253009_thumb.jpg

Well I'll post the fiddles later, I tired

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so sorry if you don't believe me, I didn't take pictures when I made it, I have no "proof"...

Well, I won't call you a liar. It is a remarkable forgery of a cheap violin. The edges and corners are very convincing. At least to me. Maybe the others will think I am an idiot.

The ash makes a very good pigment for the scratches. I once put cigar ash in a coarse saltshaker and dusted a wet varnish coat lightly. It did not look bad.

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Well its like this...

The arching and over all shape is taken from another "traditional one I did, that one was taken from a well made Chinese fiddle...that's the shape part of it...the finish was inspired by my friends German workshop fiddle and the stolen roger hargrave fiddle pics, particularly the bridge foot wear, really not trying to copy the look as much as just the old funk....My friends violin is naturally "SUPER" funky and has lots of rosin gunk and stains, it almost makes mine look....clean....

I will take some pics soon and post my two, the earlier one has much nicer wood for the back and is one piece, but you will see that they are almost identical within the shape, edge work and over look. the ff holes are different than the older one but other than that they are very similar, almost as if done by the same guy :) ...I'll try to get pics of the German fiddle too....its....super funky....I'm not sure if there's and inch without some dents on it or gunk built up.

edit....some of the scroll and neck dimensions are from the german fiddle....

jezzupe,

I looked at your pics of the "process" and I am really impressed. I am also looking forward to seeing the side by side comparisons. I understand that the "copy" will not look like the "originals" and the "originals" were used for "inspiration" :) . What I'm looking forward to seeing is how and where the "inspiration" went into the "copy". The whole mental process of the inspiration and how it translates into the new "copy" is just fasinateing to me. :)

Looking forward to the rest of the pics,

-----Barry

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It looks to me like the stain has darkened the absorptive lines of the wood and not darkened the harder, less absorptive lines. A careful look should reveal this. This is opposite what would happen under natural sunlight and aging.

Do you agree?

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Does the ash make the violin stink of cigarettes? I ask because anything a ciggy comes near (houses, clothes, hair, the smoker etc.) always reek of them. I can't imagine how a violin would not smell the same.

I have a terrible memory of one time back in the early 70s when I used to smoke ciggies and various other substances. I used to keep a can of coke (the cola kind not the sniffing kind) by the bed in case I woke up thirsty in the night. Of course one night I had brought this girl back and we'd lain in bed smoking and stubbing out the ciggies in the half-empty can. Yes, you've guessed it. I woke up half-asleep in the morning and took two large gulps before I realised I was drinking a thick lava-like cigarette-ash glue.

Let me tell you that "mineral ground" isn't good for the stomach. Good way to stop you smoking though.

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