A non-standard "modernization"

[Johnmasters]

I would like comments on an idea. Actually two ideas.

What works very well: Given that a soundpost sounds best when well fitted, I have found that a small shoe with a dimple which is glued to the back will take a soundpost with a sharpened point. (The point has a radius of about 1mm and is hardened with thin superglue.)

The top of the post can be trimmed to fit perfectly because there is no constraint at the back end to prevent rotation. It can be addusted a small amount North and South also.

It can also be tensioned easily by moving a mm or so E-W. For a functional violin it works very well. In the thread about repairing the punched-hole-top soundpost repair, I mentioned doing it on the top of a viola. That also worked very well. I have done other experiments and it has always given a very good result.

The problem: It is like the Zaret bassbar. Even if it works, it is not marketable because people will either refuse to like it or they will think the secret is in the device. "Oh, I will just get one in my violin and not buy the good new violin which has it.)

If it were possible to modify the The Violin, this would be a thing I would do. An innovation that has a lot of advantages, especially using a shoe on the back.

Perhaps a lot of people will react that the back-position of the post is very critical. I disagree. For a nominally made violin, a nominal back contact would be fine. There is still room to move it around a couple of mm on the top. It does not have to be vertical to within a degree or two.

The real problem would seem to be perception of the user. Any ideas?

(The maple veneer that Curtin uses is another example.. He can get away with it because of his reputation. And likely it is a good idea. But others who do it get the response, "How do I know that it is a really good violin.. it might sound good only because of the new modification.. I think I will have that done to my own violin." Even if a Zaret bassbar DOES work on some violins, he has the same problem.)

[FiddleDoug]

Interesting concept. Do you just use measurements to determine the location of the shoe/dimple?

[robedney]

I'm not the best one to answer you because I'm already out of the box (CF violins), but I think you're on to something.

Based on my own testing, the sound post is a mechanical link between the top and the bottom plates. Within certain parameters, what it's made of doesn't matter much. It must be stiff enough to provide efficient linkage without excessive damping. Equally, the need for a spot-on chalked perfect fit may be overrated (OMG, is that sacrilege or what!).

I agree that the contact location on the bottom plate is far less critical than the top plate -- this having to do with the bridge. I also agree that the arrangement you've described -- if I'm understanding it correctly -- would be acoustically indistinguishable from the traditional fitting method.

Moreover, why not take it a step further? If you fitted both ends of the post with a pivoting shoe I suspect that would work equally well. That would allow for a very good fit top and bottom with minimal or no carving. Adjusting the height -- thereby tension -- of the post would be as simple as sharpening a pencil (then rounding over the end). The bottom shoe could be fixed on the bottom plate, while the top shoe could be fixed to the post with something like a small amount of silicone to allow pivoting. Once in place and under tension it would behave -- structurally -- just like a standard post. It would also be equally adjustable. My thought experiment suggests to me that it would -- again -- be acoustically indistinguishable from a standard, well fitted post -- but that remains to be tested.

I may very well go ahead and try this in my current CF violin. Based on what I've learned (hands and ears on) the critical parameters for a post are: Tension, positioning at the top plate in relationship to the bridge and efficiency as a linkage between the plates. It seems to me that the perimeter of the contact area of the post/shoe may influence things, which could be controlled by the size and shape of the shoe(s). In fact, varying the shape and area of the shoes might add a new feather in the set-up person's quiver.

Yes, some makers/players are very resistant to innovation. This is not always without good reason. However, some are very open to it, and even receptive. I'd say just go ahead and do it, you may find less resistance than you think.

[Craig Tucker]

Moreover, why not take it a step further? If you fitted both ends of the post with a pivoting shoe I suspect that would work equally well. That would allow for a very good fit top and bottom with minimal or no carving. Adjusting the height -- thereby tension -- of the post would be as simple as sharpening a pencil (then rounding over the end). The bottom shoe could be fixed on the bottom plate, while the top shoe could be fixed to the post with something like a small amount of silicone to allow pivoting. Once in place and under tension it would behave -- structurally -- just like a standard post. It would also be equally adjustable. My thought experiment suggests to me that it would -- again -- be acoustically indistinguishable from a standard, well fitted post -- but that remains to be tested.

Very often (in my opinion) Great new simple and innovative ideas, are not as prone to "not being accepted" as they are to manifesting unworkable or unnecessarily complex aspects - before they really even get off of the ground. These things (not-quite-as-workable aspects) may only become apparent as makers attempt to put such new ideas into use.

Very innovative projects (cf violins, for example) actually stand a much better chance of succeeding than changes in fundamental set-up methods.

Traditional methods can be the result of direct, pragmatic utilitarian considerations, more than they might possibly be a result of some form of "rigid unthinking conformity" to the status quo.

[Johnmasters]

Interesting concept. Do you just use measurements to determine the location of the shoe/dimple?

I think there is a nominal position for the soundpost, and in a standard-made violin it is always just where everyone knows it should be. For a shoe on the back, a mm plus or minus is absolutely negligible. Even for the top, you get a good sound with the post centered on a position that would have a standard post about 3-4mm behind the bridge and in line with the foot. In effect, the shoe is just like a bridge foot on the underside, but center-center about 6-7 mm.

Based on my own testing, the sound post is a mechanical link between the top and the bottom plates. Within certain parameters, what it's made of doesn't matter much. It must be stiff enough to provide efficient linkage without excessive damping.

I did not suggest that the point contact would allow more rocking and less damping, although that may be true. It is not noticeable to me. The post just adds asymmetry to the body, and that is what you want for radiation. Of course, it is all part of the unit.

I agree that the contact location on the bottom plate is far less critical than the top plate -- this having to do with the bridge. I also agree that the arrangement you've described -- if I'm understanding it correctly -- would be acoustically indistinguishable from the traditional fitting method.

It seems to be, especially on the back. Even violins with it on the top sound fine. At least as good as traditional. But the problem is user perception. It looks like a "gimmic."

Moreover, why not take it a step further? If you fitted both ends of the post with a pivoting shoe I suspect that would work equally well. That would allow for a very good fit top and bottom with minimal or no carving. Adjusting the height -- thereby tension -- of the post would be as simple as sharpening a pencil (then rounding over the end). The bottom shoe could be fixed on the bottom plate, while the top shoe could be fixed to the post with something like a small amount of silicone to allow pivoting.

I have thought of a patened post that would have pivoting ends like those aluminum bassbar clamps. It could have very lightweight telescoping stainless steel tubing and an internal shim. Or even a turnbuckle to turn from the outside to adjust tension. This would be risky for the novice to adjust, of course.

I may very well go ahead and try this in my current CF violin. Based on what I've learned (hands and ears on) the critical parameters for a post are: Tension, positioning at the top plate in relationship to the bridge and efficiency as a linkage between the plates. It seems to me that the perimeter of the contact area of the post/shoe may influence things, which could be controlled by the size and shape of the shoe(s). In fact, varying the shape and area of the shoes might add a new feather in the set-up person's quiver.

could be. I use the shoes from the adjustable bridge because they have a feathered edge on the foot. If a bridge foot is good upstairs, maybe it is OK downstairs. It definitely works, question is perception once again.

Yes, some makers/players are very resistant to innovation. This is not always without good reason. However, some are very open to it, and even receptive. I'd say just go ahead and do it, you may find less resistance than you think.

Well thanks. It is just the idea that professional players would not think it was cricket to do this. I have done it with the white Chinese violins at times and no complaints. But they were inexpensive and the students just wanted function along with an outside appearance they liked.

Very often (in my opinion) Great new simple and innovative ideas, are not as prone to "not being accepted" as they are to manifesting unworkable or unnecessarily complex aspects - before they really even get off of the ground.

It looks like a gimmick, as I said. but it is simple. I repaired a laminated cello for a school a while back. The post had punched through the plywood back, and you know what that means. I put a small bassbar about 4" long about 45 degrees across the hole. It happens that the school had two of these cellos and the kids like the repaired one better now. (I think a plywood back without an extra disk of 3/16" plywood is too weak at the soundpost.)

The problem with a gimmick, again, is that people attribute any good sound with only the gimmick. It is like the Zaret bar. Actually, there are all kinds of Zaret bars, some do good on inexpensive instruments. I have seen several, and they are not variations on the same theme, they are truly different in a qualitative sense.

[robedney]

Continuing to think here -- and based on ideas John put forward -- why not:

Envision a sound post of carbon fiber with a pivoting shoe where it contacts the top plate. The bottom of the post has a ball threaded on to it, with a hex socket in the end of the post. The ball sits in a keyed shoe/half socket affixed the to bottom plate. A hole through the bottom plate allows access to the hex socket, allowing for tensioning or loosening the fit of the post. The two ended pivot arrangement and adjustable height allow the top of the post to be placed within the normal range of sound post adjustment points.

In other words, the post tension is fully adjustable from the exterior (as John suggested) which might prove to be a real advantage in lots of ways -- just one being set-up for optimal sound. Re-positioning the post in relationship to the bridge would be very easy because the post could be de-tensioned during the process. Being able to simply de-tension a post might also have ramifications in conservation, shipping, etc.

The downside -- of course -- is the necessity of a hole through the bottom plate -- something that bothers me not in the least but is probably a non-starter as a retrofit post in wooden instruments. However, John's idea of a turnbuckle might work very well because it could be fully internal, but easily adjusted (perhaps just like the clamps on a chin rest with a similar tool designed to work through the f hole). Such a thing would requite threads with some level of interference to insure a snug fit and things staying put.

I'm starting to find this idea fascinating from a CF perspective because (1) I can get away with it and (2) I can tension the post well beyond the limits of wood and -- therefore -- potentially create small and incremental changes in the actual arching of the plates -- and who knows what that would do?????

[robedney]

And John, I think your idea for a patented adjustable post may have real potential. Despite the way we tend to think here, most of the violins in the world are student level instruments and many of them in schools. Such a patented post could be installed and adjusted in a matter of a few minutes with even minimal practice. Any adjusting tool could be cheap and included with the post. A video on YouTube could demonstrate the process and the results. Many string teachers would be adept enough to do it on their own. Not to put an luthiers out of business, but the schools need all the help they can get these days -- particularly strings programs (in other words, instruments that don't normally appear on a football field).

Not to mention the fact that I'd be happy to buy such a thing from you and skip the development process on my own

[Oded Kishony]

I have done it with the white Chinese violins at times and no complaints.

from my perspective I would adopt a new technique or device if it met two criteria.

simpler than the original

produced a better sound

Doesn't look as if this is the direction ideas for a new post are going.

Oded

[robedney]

from my perspective I would adopt a new technique or device if it met two criteria.

simpler than the original

produced a better sound

Doesn't look as if this is the direction ideas for a new post are going.

Oded

I hear what you're saying, and I might even agree. In part the question is "simpler for whom?" Such a post would certainly be simpler for the end user -- the player, much in the same way that a modern, well engineered car is simpler to own and more economical to drive than something from the sixties, even though is far more complex to initially make. It's simple for an experienced set-up person to adjust a post, but far from simple for anyone else. I understand any reservations regarding having players messing around with things, but some would be skilled enough to make adjustments and perhaps improve sound for themselves or their students.

And who knows? Would a post that was very easy to re-tension/position improve sound at times?

Clearly this is a niche sort of thing -- not everyone would want one. The question is are there not advantages for those who would?

[Fellow]

I hear what you're saying, and I might even agree. In part the question is "simpler for whom?" Such a post would certainly be simpler for the end user -- the player, much in the same way that a modern, well engineered car is simpler to own and more economical to drive than something from the sixties, even though is far more complex to initially make. It's simple for an experienced set-up person to adjust a post, but far from simple for anyone else. I understand any reservations regarding having players messing around with things, but some would be skilled enough to make adjustments and perhaps improve sound for themselves or their students.

And who knows? Would a post that was very easy to re-tension/position improve sound at times?

Clearly this is a niche sort of thing -- not everyone would want one. The question is are there not advantages for those who would?

+++++++++++++

Adjusting the soundpost by its length and position is most simple a thing as one can expect to do. That is the beauty of the construction.

I am sure if you allow one to put a microchip in inside of a violin it will beat a Strad. easy.

PS. I have seen at least two old violins that their soundposts were glued to the plates. I do not know if other people mind.

From practical point of view, a lot of soundpost problems were actually solved.

[jezzupe]

Not saying that it would or would not work, the thing about it I'm not crazy about is that to me it takes some doing to find the optimum spot after initial placement, this kinda makes it impossible to tap around. Also the ideal spot may change over time.

[Johnmasters]

why not: Thanks, I am surprised at the positive reactions so far.

A hole through the bottom plate allows access to the hex socket, allowing for tensioning or loosening the fit of the post. The two ended pivot arrangement and adjustable height allow the top of the post to be placed within the normal range of sound post adjustment points. Great for experiments too. I don't mind the hole, put some purfling or decoration around it. (Line it with brass tubing to prevent damage to the wood.)

In other words, the post tension is fully adjustable from the exterior (as John suggested) which might prove to be a real advantage in lots of ways -- just one being set-up for optimal sound. Re-positioning the post in relationship to the bridge would be very easy because the post could be de-tensioned during the process. Being able to simply de-tension a post might also have ramifications in conservation, shipping, etc. I like this too, except for the neurotic violinist who is always experimenting.

I'm starting to find this idea fascinating from a CF perspective because (1) I can get away with it and (2) I can tension the post well beyond the limits of wood and -- therefore -- potentially create small and incremental changes in the actual arching of the plates -- and who knows what that would do?????

One might be able to determine the proper tension and make a spacer spring inside. Then it would not fall down with loose strings and also easy to adjust. Don't forget the about-.4mm pretension Becker makes with the shim, after he determines how much tension is needed.

I don't have the ambition or time to develop or promote such a thing. But anyone who did likely would get rich. Keep it simple, easy to make. Instead of a ball-and-socket make a thin neck that is a little flexible. Two parts are threaded for trials to fit it. Thread pitch of 1/3 mm should be fine. You could even pre-bend the pads to approximately 10 degrees or whatever it is.

from my perspective I would adopt a new technique or device if it met two criteria.

simpler than the original simpler to fit in school instruments. Fits perfectly.

produced a better sound. could not detect any difference, I am sure. This would not be for strads or even a standard for new violins. A deJacques bridge sounds "OK" if you are not a professional.

Doesn't look as if this is the direction ideas for a new post are going. The idea is not to improve tone except that more school instruments would have a well-fit post. Oded, how good are your ears, and do you care about an average garden-variety violin? I don't. If it is no good for violins, it would be great for cellos and basses. Easier to make also.

Oded

Not saying that it would or would not work, the thing about it I'm not crazy about is that to me it takes some doing to find the optimum spot after initial placement, this kinda makes it impossible to tap around. Also the ideal spot may change over time.

I see just the opposite. Again, it is not for the fussy-minded violinist such as the ones who worry you to death with their disatisfactions.

This is what I meant by not having the ambition or time to develop and sell it. Only one thing easier than finding fault with it is to not do it in the first place.

[robedney]

Not saying that it would or would not work, the thing about it I'm not crazy about is that to me it takes some doing to find the optimum spot after initial placement, this kinda makes it impossible to tap around. Also the ideal spot may change over time.

Hey J, only the foot of the post is fixed in position (in one imaginary version, at least). The top of the post can be tapped around to your heart's content. The nice thing is that you could de-tension it just enough to make said tapping easy, than re-tension to whatever degree you wanted.

[Johnmasters]

Hey J, only the foot of the post is fixed in position (in one imaginary version, at least). The top of the post can be tapped around to your heart's content. The nice thing is that you could de-tension it just enough to make said tapping easy, than re-tension to whatever degree you wanted.

There are a number of possibilities. A permanent location on the back seems fine to me. There are no parameters on the back as small as the post-bridge distance.

[lvlagneto]

Do you make violins, or just test them?

Haven't we discussed such ideas before? You're proposing that a post be sharpened like a miniature golf pencil, and placed into a tiny volcano glued onto the back? Seems fine enough, but it's just another thing to maintain and come loose. If you carve the cup as part of the back, perhaps that would be better, with a very shallow grade. I'm sure that someone has done this. Pretty soon student violins will be full of golf tees and broken pencils... if they aren't already.

[go_oa]

Some time ago I saw an add for a spring

loaded sound post. Simple. No length measurement

required. Swivel cups on the ends. WHY NOT !!

[robedney]

Some time ago I saw an add for a spring

loaded sound post. Simple. No length measurement

required. Swivel cups on the ends. WHY NOT !!

Interesting. Do you remember where? I'm more or less convince that a spring loaded post on its own isn't going to do the trick -- the spring will introduce way too much damping in the linkage. What seems to work is a more or less rigid connection (just how rigid being open to debate). John seemed to suggest the possibility of a spring to hold the thing in place when the string tension is removed, but solid contact when under tension. That might work.

And please everyone, don't take offense. We're just throwing ideas around here. Sometimes good stuff comes out of that.

[Johnmasters]

Do you make violins, or just test them?

Haven't we discussed such ideas before? You're proposing that a post be sharpened like a miniature golf pencil, and placed into a tiny volcano glued onto the back? Seems fine enough, but it's just another thing to maintain and come loose. If you carve the cup as part of the back, perhaps that would be better, with a very shallow grade. I'm sure that someone has done this. Pretty soon student violins will be full of golf tees and broken pencils... if they aren't already.

Are you Ian Burkhard? I saw your photo on Violinists.com.

What is wrong with "just" testing violins? A couple of things have been discussed. A self-fitting post which could be marketed by someone besides myself and one that fits in a socket.

Neither will come loose. Tiny volcanos are good. Big ones are bad.

A divit in the back might not distribute the load as well as some kind of shoe. It would likely make the back much more prone to splitting at that spot. Concentrated stresses.

Interesting. Do you remember where? I'm more or less convince that a spring loaded post on its own isn't going to do the trick -- the spring will introduce way too much damping in the linkage. What seems to work is a more or less rigid connection (just how rigid being open to debate). John seemed to suggest the possibility of a spring to hold the thing in place when the string tension is removed, but solid contact when under tension. That might work.

And please everyone, don't take offense. We're just throwing ideas around here. Sometimes good stuff comes out of that.

Actually, as I remember it, I rejected it long ago. The spring constant or stiffness would be way lower than the wood-wood contact of a traditional choice. Sorry I was careless enough to bring it up. Even if damping were zero, it would be too springy. It has to be rigid.

[lvlagneto]

I'm active on several forums, including vCom (but only when MN gets slow). My photo is up here as well, just check my profile. You can also check out my website www.iburkard.com (mostly empty, but it's there), and my youTube channel. If you want my phone number I'd be glad to share it and meet for coffee.

I personally feel that nothing beats repairing/making something, instead of just impacting things that I didn't bring into existence. Everyone has different interests. I'm 90% sure that you do make, but some days it's hard to tell with all this tapping/hammering business.

Just out of curiosity, what is the neatest thing that you've learned doing your tests?

Back to the topic... the idea of a socket seems impractical when I consider how easy fitting a regular post is. The idea of a slightly thicker plate in post areas makes sense, and would seem to cause less harm than adding material to the back of an instrument, or trying to market an add-on. You might as well market a post with a swiveling bottom...

Like this:

=====o|

Or maybe both ends?

\o======o/

[Johnmasters]

I personally feel that nothing beats repairing/making something, instead of just impacting things that I didn't bring into existence. Everyone has different interests. I'm 90% sure that you do make, but some days it's hard to tell with all this tapping/hammering business.

Just out of curiosity, what is the neatest thing that you've learned doing your tests?

Back to the topic... the idea of a socket seems impractical when I consider how easy fitting a regular post is. The idea of a slightly thicker plate in post areas makes sense, and would seem to cause less harm than adding material to the back of an instrument, or trying to market an add-on. You might as well market a post with a swiveling bottom...

I already said I was not interested in trying to market such a thing. As for the special made shoe, that is a practical repair for a catastrophic accident with a school instrument. Especially the back of a plywood cello, as I said.

I actually don't tap things. I have done some FFT measurements in the past, but not recently. The most interesting thing I have decided (not discovered or proven) is that mode 5 probably can tell me all the useful information I need about a plate, also most of what is meaningful. I will eventually measure entire violins when I have some experiments in back graduations done. I have also some FEA indications that the curtate cycloid really is a strong arch. It also seems to place the inflection close to a region which will not creep to a new location. At least it is a good starting point. Also, I have decided against inflections in the long arch and the use of cos(polynomial in x) is a good approach to a long arch.

Yes, I make. I have a few over 200 instruments plus a lot of repairs since I started full time 1972. I did it as a hobby since 1961. I have followed the CAS since 1960.

That does not include my varnish interests which have been from the beginning. I now have something that I think works well.

The coffee is a friendly gesture, and thanks for that. Likely we are separated by a few miles, I am in Columbus, Ohio (USA).

Thanks for the profile, I wish more people did it. I just read mine and find that a number is wrong. Started making 1960, age 16. Born May 8, 1944

[Johnmasters]

Interesting concept. Do you just use measurements to determine the location of the shoe/dimple?

For the back, just measure from the corners of the end blocks. For top, the shoe from a foot of a deJaques bridge is about 3-4 mm behind the (upper) bridge foot. The center of the post is not changed from what I consider nominal.

[lvlagneto]

I'd have to meet you in PA for coffee... bit of a drive, but not too bad.

There was another thread about a bass repair where someone installed a brace along the back to stabilize the instrument. This seems like a fair repair for a student bass. I suppose this plug/plunger design would work as well... would be a time saver instead of doing a large back/post patch.

[Michael Richwine]

I basically make my living selling looks, sound, and playability. Two out of the three of those are strongly influenced by the sound post fit, tension, and position. To me, it doesn't make any sense to use a system that is more complicated and difficult to apply, and which makes it infinitely more difficult to adjust the sound to the customer's liking. I don't move them much, but small changes make a lot of difference if everything else is right.

Kind of like running in leg irons to me. Counterproductive.

[propolis]

I don't have the credentials of this august assembly, but I have lost count of the soundposts I've fitted. Certainly many scores of them, possibly hundreds. One thing I find myself doing often enough to mention is kicking the lower end of the post to adjust the effective center of the top's contact. Based on something Dick Mattson wrote a few years back, mostly regarding cello posts, but I find it does make a difference on violins too.

I aim for evenly burnished flat ends on violin soundposts, with perhaps some bias towards the shallowest of domes; certainly not concave. I'm thinking that with a fixed location of the lower end, pushing the top of a post south for example might add a hint more pressure to the north edge of its top end, effectively reversing the intent of the move.

[Johnmasters]

I basically make my living selling looks, sound, and playability. Two out of the three of those are strongly influenced by the sound post fit, tension, and position. To me, it doesn't make any sense to use a system that is more complicated and difficult to apply, and which makes it infinitely more difficult to adjust the sound to the customer's liking. I don't move them much, but small changes make a lot of difference if everything else is right.

Kind of like running in leg irons to me. Counterproductive.

The solution is obvious: don't do it.

I'm thinking that with a fixed location of the lower end, pushing the top of a post south for example might add a hint more pressure to the north edge of its top end, effectively reversing the intent of the move.

Don' forget that the post can now rotate without upsetting the back fit.

Obviously, the tension will vary according to where the top end rests. But it can be moved small distances along an arc.

I did not post this to learn all of the geometric objections. It was a suggestion for something a school teacher could use. But before that, it was a suggestion for a cheap repair.. and it works. It also works well for a new violin, although I would not use it in my own violins because of buyer perception. But it does sound like a post, at least as good, if it is in the same place.

It was the only way, for example, to fix the plywood cello with the shattered back. Imagine how torn up the laminations were. I filled the hole with a Bondo-like substance and shot it with brown paint. From a few feet away it looks acceptable and the tone is very good.... for what it was.