Modern maker value

[zefir68]

There are so many wonderful makers on this forum, coexisting with people looking at eBay listings got me to wonder: what are modern violins really worth? What if a Burgess, Carlson or Holmes were available on an eBay listing? Is anyone willing to test the market among these makers? From my experience, these guys are worth every penny, but there are so many "Italian" makers with names ending in vowels these days that it is hard to really assess the worth of 'modern' violins. My question: what are modern violins really worth and what is the basis for their price? Provenance is out, workmanship is also out since these guys are excellent makers and sound is often discussed here before it becomes irrelevant when the techies weigh in with (in my opinion) totally useless graphs.

[Bill Yacey]

That's a very good question. To greatly simplify things though, a direct quote from my father- "Something is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it."

[Fellow]

There are so many wonderful makers on this forum, coexisting with people looking at eBay listings got me to wonder: what are modern violins really worth? What if a Burgess, Carlson or Holmes were available on an eBay listing? Is anyone willing to test the market among these makers? From my experience, these guys are worth every penny, but there are so many "Italian" makers with names ending in vowels these days that it is hard to really assess the worth of 'modern' violins. My question: what are modern violins really worth and what is the basis for their price? Provenance is out, workmanship is also out since these guys are excellent makers and sound is often discussed here before it becomes irrelevant when the techies weigh in with (in my opinion) totally useless graphs.

+++++++++++++

Collector's value? or Player"s value? Sometime I heard people or newspaper quoted big numbers.

Violins of such high prices are exceptions. How many people can afford them? How many can play violins

on regular bases? very few.

What makes a violin good? This question has to be setlled first. By collectors or by players?

Collectors have to be rich and willing. Players have to be a bit crazy. The world is big enough to have all kinds.

If someone pays a violin over $10k, I gather that person knows what he or she is doing. Some violins are just okay, nothing

special. Many are VSO.

[skiingfiddler]

I don't know that there's any way to decide what a contemporary violin is worth, other than what buyers are willing to pay.

I do know that in buying a contemporary violin, you are not paying anything for one supposedly desirable quality in violins: being old. I'm convinced there is an "it's an antique" premium to be paid in any old violin, regardless of its maker, condition, or tonal qualities.

I'm also convinced that age, by itself, is meaningless as a factor in a violin's tonal quality: Old violins can sound good or bad. New violins can sound good or bad.

Thus I'm happy to buy contemporary fiddles and spare myself the "antique" premium.

[cdabel]

I'm curious about this as well. I've gotten the itch for a new instrument and was considering buying a contemporary instrument in the recent Tarisio auction. Unfortunately I didn't have an opportunity to go to any showings, and I was a little hesitant to buy something unseen. I did follow the auctions closely though, and it seems that the hammer price of several contemporary instruments was between what I guess to be about 40-60% of a newly made instrument from that maker. Is there any established trend regarding auction price of contemporary instruments compared to the "new" price? Can a part of the difference be explained because when buying a new instrument you have a trial period whereas with a "used" one at auction you do not? (even though I wonder how many commissioned instruments are actually returned). Or is it that simply that "used" is bad, but "old" is good.

[fiddlecollector]

There are so many wonderful makers on this forum, coexisting with people looking at eBay listings got me to wonder: what are modern violins really worth? What if a Burgess, Carlson or Holmes were available on an eBay listing? Is anyone willing to test the market among these makers? From my experience, these guys are worth every penny, but there are so many "Italian" makers with names ending in vowels these days that it is hard to really assess the worth of 'modern' violins. My question: what are modern violins really worth and what is the basis for their price? Provenance is out, workmanship is also out since these guys are excellent makers and sound is often discussed here before it becomes irrelevant when the techies weigh in with (in my opinion) totally useless graphs.

I believe the market is mostly still dominated by antique instruments ,particularly where resale value is concerned, ive noticed quite a few modernish violins recently (at auctions)by modern makers and they dont bring much in the way of prices.(compared to what their new prices are) Ebay is harder to figure anything can happen on there and im never seized to be amazed at what sells well and what doesnt .

Yesterday i saw a violin (1980`s)by a well known person whos initials are E.B at a local auction.Ive never seen one of his violins before and couldn`t find any photos or price info on him ,so didnt bother to bid and it went for under a grand .I wish i had bid now i think about it.It was probably genuine.

[mysticpaw]

+++++++++++++

Collector's value? or Player"s value? Sometime I heard people or newspaper quoted big numbers.

Violins of such high prices are exceptions. How many people can afford them? How many can play violins

on regular bases? very few.

What makes a violin good? This question has to be setlled first. By collectors or by players?

Collectors have to be rich and willing. Players have to be a bit crazy. The world is big enough to have all kinds.

If someone pays a violin over $10k, I gather that person knows what he or she is doing. Some violins are just okay, nothing

special. Many are VSO.

[mysticpaw]

Ooops... hit wrong key !! Meant to say, please excuse my ignorance, but what is meant by " VSO " ?

[Fellow]

Ooops... hit wrong key !! Meant to say, please excuse my ignorance, but what is meant by " VSO " ?

++++++++++

VSO = Violin shape object. (toy) you do not feel like to try it.

[lyndon]

the old saying its only worth what someone will pay for it is a bunch of hooey, if you took a genuine stradivari to the pawn shop youd be lucky to get $50 does that mean its worth 50 or if you put it in a local auction you might get 2-3000. that stradivari has a worth irrespective of what someone is willing to pay for it in a less than optimal setting, now as to well known makers going for 40-60% of full retail, its an auction its supposed to be wholesale prices which average 50% of retail, sincerely lyndon :)

[MANFIO]

I see comtemporary instruments as tools for contemporary players. In general professional tools will have almost no resale value, musicians are happy that they can resale their tools and that there is even a market for that.

I have spend a mint in cars and eletronic products in the last 20 years (computers, printers, cameras, videos, DVD, sound sets) and their resale value today is zero, 95% of this just can't be used anymore because they got dated and old. My beloved cafeteria "La Pavone" that I got in Italy 14 years ago stoped working today, by the way, and I find a miracle it worked for such a long time.

Anyway, a good sounding contemporary instrument is easier to sell than bad old one. And music education is too expensive and life is too short for playing bad instruments.

But I may be wrong.

[David Burgess]

I don't think Ebay is where players look for a good, somewhat expensive instrument. Too much hanky-panky. The only violin with my name I've seen listed there was a fake, and I know of other makers who have run into the same thing. If a real one was placed there, I'd expect it to be regarded with suspicion, the number of interested parties to be low, and the bids to reflect that. Things are different when you have the maker, or a brick-and-mortar shop backing it up.

Regular auctions:

I don't think that's where players generally go either. No chance to try the instrument at home for a couple of weeks, or take it into a hall to compare with familiar instruments? No chance to get feedback from all your musician buddies? Not always a guarantee of authenticity? How qualified is a musician to assess damage and condition? These things amount to significant risk. For a dealer, the risk is lower. At least they aren't usually buying the instrument for one particular person, and it can hang around until a person who happens to like the sound comes along. They're in a better position to alter the sound too. If auctions are largely populated by dealers (who are also taking some risk), they will need to make a profit, maybe put some money into the instrument, maybe sit on it a while before it sells, so the price they pay would need to reflect that. Wholesale prices in general, in other words.

What is a modern instrument worth? Probably what someone will pay, like anything else. A better definition might be what can generally be gotten on the retail secondary or resale market. I write "replacement cost" insurance appraisals based on what I charge new, but that doesn't mean that a replacement can be found, or found for that price, so maybe that's not the right way to do it. That happened just recently, where an insurance company "totaled" one of my violins (my guess is that it was sitting in the case with the shoulder rest on, and someone sat on the lid), and the owner couldn't find another one. I also know of a couple of independent sales for quite a bit more than I charge.

So I don't have a solid answer to what a modern instrument is worth; can only offer some thoughts. Maybe Jeffrey will have something to say about it.

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

Anyway, a good sounding contemporary instrument is easier to sell than bad old one. And music education is too expensive and life is too short for playing bad instruments.

But I may be wrong.

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

If the buyer is happy, doesn't that mean that the instrument was worth the price? Maybe that is not the subject issue?

[Fellow]

If the buyer is happy, doesn't that mean that the instrument was worth the price? Maybe that is not the subject issue?

++++++++++++++

I thought we have agreed that the value of a violin is what someone is willing to pay for.

So, if Mr. John Doe pays $8,000 in hs free will, so the value is $8k. What more proof does

anyone need? (of course, I assume Mr. Doe is not doing the seller any favor, strictly a business deal)

[Bill Yacey]

the old saying its only worth what someone will pay for it is a bunch of hooey, if you took a genuine stradivari to the pawn shop youd be lucky to get $50 does that mean its worth 50 or if you put it in a local auction you might get 2-3000. that stradivari has a worth irrespective of what someone is willing to pay for it in a less than optimal setting, now as to well known makers going for 40-60% of full retail, its an auction its supposed to be wholesale prices which average 50% of retail, sincerely lyndon :)

In your scenario, the violin is worth $50.00 to the seller and the pawnbroker at that point in time if they both decide to conclude the deal. If the violin however goes to a reputable auction and someone purchases it for $7000, It's now worth $7000 to the buyer and seller.

If it's not a great violin, and I feel it's only worth $2500 and yet I decided I would like to own that instrument, Do you think the owner that just paid $7000 will consider selling it at a loss? Perhaps the owner is stuck with it because he overpaid and nobody else is willing to pay what he did for it. Everything eventually finds its own real level of value.

[priya]

There are so many excellent violins out there new and old.

No need to spend very much of less you want to chase a famous name.

If you love the sound search no more.. A mutt can sound much better than

a Pedigree. The best soundings violincost me $200.The rest is just vanity.

[gowan]

Regarding price or resale value, makers and shops sell at full retail price while auction prices are more like "wholesale" price, quite a bit lower, usually. For a living maker another factor is important, namely the possibility of getting an instrument built to your specifications. Also, there isn't the same scarcity factor operating with new instruments as there is for old instruments. Newer instruments are usually more robust, too, they need less maintenance. Reputation and demand play roles in prices of newer instruments, too. Probably David Burgess charges more for a new violin now than he did 20 years ago. Finally, there is no question about authenticity for instruments by living makers, you can always check with the maker.

[baroquecello]

I've heard that the german maker (specialised in Cellos, I won't mention his name here, since I don't know how much he would appreciate it) once sold a cello of his on Ebay. He did this in order to make his name more known, so it was sort of for advertisement purposes. He was kind of upset when the cello sold for slightly over 2000 Euros (his instruments went for over 15000 Euros back then), but he did acheive an increase in visits of his website and now is becomeing a popular maker, so he was able to increase his normal (non-ebay-auction) prices, so it may have payed off in the end.

I played the cello (de Munck Strad-copy) at the place of its current owner, it is a wonderful instrument that would easily have sold for over 15000 as well, I am sure. If I would have hte money, I'd buy it.

[robertdo]

I guess all this is true but if a professional maker wants to keep going on I suppose there must be a minimum price (namely the price of the wood and the working hours). Let's say 150 hours at minimum wage of £5/h is £750 added to £100-150 for the wood and set up that would make it £850-990. Can you really make a living as a maker (supposing you're working on your own) selling violins for less than that?

[Bill Yacey]

I guess all this is true but if a professional maker wants to keep going on I suppose there must be a minimum price (namely the price of the wood and the working hours). Let's say 150 hours at minimum wage of £5/h is £750 added to £100-150 for the wood and set up that would make it £850-990. Can you really make a living as a maker (supposing you're working on your own) selling violins for less than that?

If a maker can't earn enough to live, then:

A. His / Her work isn't worthy of the asking price compared to the competition.

B. They aren't exposed well enough to the buying market.

C. The market for their particular product is meagre or doesn't exist.

Any one of these situations, and the maker has to rethink their strategy, or go into real estate, run a hot dog stand, or some other change of profession.

[lyndon]

bill if you read my comment i was talking about a genuine stradivari worth 2 million and what it might get at the pawn shop as proof something can be worth way more or less than what someone will pay for it, sincerely lyndon all you have to do is look at ebay for plenty of things selling for much more than what they are worth, usually with fake labels, so ive said it before, what you sell a violin for is often unrelated to what it is worth

[Bill Yacey]

bill if you read my comment i was talking about a genuine stradivari worth 2 million and what it might get at the pawn shop as proof something can be worth way more or less than what someone will pay for it, sincerely lyndon

I understand what you're getting at Lyndon, I was just trying to make the point that what something is worth is an abstract derived figure based on someone's opinion. Even the opinion isn't worth a hill of beans until someone is willing to back it up with cash in hand.

Here's something to ponder: What would a Stradivari be worth if the world economic system crashed through a worldwide catastrophe to the point where all currency is worthless, and people are starving in the streets. Would it be worth a side of beef or a truckload of grain to feed your family? I am of the opinion the food would greatly develop a higher net worth compared to a violin.

[lyndon]

if the world economy crashed my guess is the tea party loyalists that would control the us would hoard stradivaris just like the nazis in wwII :)

[David Burgess]

No need to spend very much of less you want to chase a famous name.

If you love the sound search no more.. A mutt can sound much better than

a Pedigree. The best soundings violincost me $200.The rest is just vanity.

I've played thousands of instruments, and think that in general, the better known makers deserve their reputation, as well as the prices.

If you don't think so, lets put your $200 violin alongside some in a hall, and see what the audience thinks.

There are actually very few people making a full-time living as makers (not counting the factory workers). Most have some kind of a"day job", maybe violin related. Even if one has sufficient demand to be full-time and get reasonable prices, it's not a great strategy for getting rich.