3 octave scales

[fidleir]

I'm interested in learniing a little classical and as a fiddler learning to play some in higher positions.I have been looking up the net and found that most tutors teach that on the G scale you should shift from Cnat to d (A string) and then from b to c (E string).Ihave been attemting to work this out myself previously and and was shifting from F to G(D string)playing 3rd position up to the F then shiftiont to the octave d.and repeat.

[skiingfiddler]

The fingering you're suggesting first (shift to 3rd position A string) is common. Your own variant of shifting on D string might be less common. (I'm not sure I fully understand your variant.) But there are still other fingerings.

The one I like for 3 octave scales is to do all the shifting on the E string using fingering 1, 2, 3, shift 1, 2, 3, shift 1, 2, 3. For the G scale, on the E string, you shift from 1st position to 4th position, then finally to 7th position.

So for 3 octave G major and minor, you get the top G with the 3rd finger. For 3 octave A, same fingering, just add the 4th finger for top A. For Bb and B, start on 2nd finger, 1st position, G string, do E string fingering as in A, but extend 4 at top (ie, play 4 twice) for Bb or B. (Alternatively, for Bb and B, start in 2nd position, 1st finger, G string, and use A fingering.) For C, start 3rd position, 1st finger on G string, and use A fingering.

The core idea is that you stay in the position that you start in until you reach the E string, and then do all of your shifting in a 1, 2, 3, shift 1, 2, 3 finger pattern on the E string.

However, for someone just starting out with positions and shifting, the old traditional version of G in which you shift to 3rd position on A string and 5th position on E string, ending on top G with an extended 4th finger might be the easiest to learn, and would reinforce where 3rd and 5th positions are.

[fidleir]

The fingering you're suggesting first (shift to 3rd position A string) is common. Your own variant of shifting on D string might be less common. (I'm not sure I fully understand your variant.) But there are still other fingerings.

The one I like for 3 octave scales is to do all the shifting on the E string using fingering 1, 2, 3, shift 1, 2, 3, shift 1, 2, 3. For the G scale, on the E string, you shift from 1st position to 4th position, then finally to 7th position.

So for 3 octave G major and minor, you get the top G with the 3rd finger. For 3 octave A, same fingering, just add the 4th finger for top A. For Bb and B, start on 2nd finger, 1st position, G string, do E string fingering as in A, but extend 4 at top (ie, play 4 twice) for Bb or B. (Alternatively, for Bb and B, start in 2nd position, 1st finger, G string, and use A fingering.) For C, start 3rd position, 1st finger on G string, and use A fingering.

The core idea is that you stay in the position that you start in until you reach the E string, and then do all of your shifting in a 1, 2, 3, shift 1, 2, 3 finger pattern on the E string.

However, for someone just starting out with positions and shifting, the old traditional version of G in which you shift to 3rd position on A string and 5th position on E string, ending on top G with an extended 4th finger might be the easiest to learn, and would reinforce where 3rd and 5th positions are.

[fidleir]

Thanks for your reply maybe this will explain what was doing more clearly

G string-0123

D string 012shift 1(3rd pos) 234

A string 123(3rdpos)shift 1(6th pos )234

E string )6thpos)1234

i realise know this skips the 5th pos.

Regards

[skiingfiddler]

Thanks for your reply maybe this will explain what was doing more clearly

G string-0123

D string 012shift 1(3rd pos) 234

A string 123(3rdpos)shift 1(6th pos )234

E string )6thpos)1234

i realise know this skips the 5th pos.

Regards

That's a perfectly acceptable solution, and saves you the mushiness that might occur in the more traditional one when the very top G is achieved by pushing the 4th finger up out of 5th position.

And I don't believe that skipping 5th position is necessarily a drawback.

The arguments against your solution, comparing it to the more traditional one (Playing 1st position until A string. Shifting to 3rd position on A string, and then 5th position on E string) might be:

-- You are shifting on lower strings, D and A, rather than the higher strings, A and E. Shifting is, for most people, easier on higher strings than it is on lower strings.

-- You're using a position, 6th, that most beginner/intermediate players would not be familiar with, especially on the A string.

-- Most beginners find a fingering that relies on 1, 2, shift 1, 2 easier than a pattern of 1, 2, 3, shift 1 that you're using on the A string.

If you really want to use the 1, 2, 3, shift 1 pattern, then you might think of the solution I've offered above with the 1, 2, 3, shift 1, 2, 3, shift 1, 2, 3 pattern all on the E string. The E string is the easiest string to do shifts on, especially in the higher positions.

Even if you decide to use the 1, 2, 3, shift 1 pattern that I like, you will want to be sure to learn the 1, 2, shift 1 pattern (eg, from 1st to 3rd position), also.

I would recommend that in doing the 3 octave G major scale that the player be sure to be able to play the "traditional" pattern (that is, 3rd position on A string, 5th position on E string, extend 4th finger for final top G) well. Then find an alternative for yourself that you like better.

[Andrew Victor]

I think the 3 octave scale studies in "Hrimaly" will take care of teaching you very good ways to select positions (for what lies ahead). Buy a copy.

I'm aware of Flesch too, but the Hrimaly was suggested to me directly from the Heifetz line of teaching (one removed) back in 1973. If you are asked to audition scales, a knowledgeable auditor will know from watching you, which scale method you are using.

Andy

[skiingfiddler]

I think the 3 octave scale studies in "Hrimaly" will take care of teaching you very good ways to select positions (for what lies ahead). Buy a copy.

Andy

That's good advice. Hrimaly is the classic scale book.

[zefir68]

That's good advice. Hrimaly is the classic scale book.

Hrimaly is definitely NOT the classic scale book. It is very useful but not as good as the Flesch system. All personal preferences aside, one needs a teacher to interpret the various systems. There is no 'self-teaching' system, unfortunately. Much like most of the discussions on this forum re violin building, varnishing and such, there is no substitute for hands on experience with the guidance of an experienced master.

[robertdo]

And in any case it's pretty useless to try to pin down ONE standard fingering for scales. A big part of violin learning is actually learning how to go from one position to another as easily and smoothly as possible. The same goes with scales.

[skiingfiddler]

The fingering you use for a scale in the context of a piece of music might be very different from the fingering you use for an isolated 3 octave scale. Fingering in a piece may also be affected by the rhythms of the notes you're playing and whether you want to shift on the strong part of the beat (good idea) or the weak part (harder to do smoothly).

I remember learning from the Hrimaly book some 45 years ago, from a teacher who traced his learning lineage to Auer. (The teacher claimed to be 2nd generation, and all his students were christened 3rd. That kind of tracing back to Auer was pretty common then, and really means very little.) Anyway, the classic scale book for me is definitely Hrimaly, with all its strengths and shortcomings.