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Posted

As an example of what a teacher will allow without correction is this lad from my school. Asking him to freeze then taking the violin away shows quite clearly forward shoulder placement which could well lead to problems later on. Do you wise folks think he should posterior tilt his pelvis a little as well?

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Posted

Look how Anne Sophie Mutter holds the fiddle in the following clip. Pay special attention to the shots from the back, over the shoulder (about 40 seconds into the clip):

Notice that:

--She plays with her chin placed at the center line of the fiddle, with a chinrest whose cup is over the tailpiece. She doesn't place her chin to the left of the tailpiece.

--She points the fiddle to the left so that the center seam of the fiddle (or a line close to that center seam) runs down the length of her shoulder.

--The back of the fiddle is in contact with her shoulder essentially for the entire length of her shoulder.

--She does not lift the left shoulder to elevate the fiddle. She rests the fiddle on essentially a relaxed left shoulder. The result is that the scroll points downward a little bit. It's not at nose level, as some teachers require. ("Hold your violin up," they say, and thus end up requiring the student either to scrunch the shoulder upward, or get a shoulder rest in order to avoid scrunching.)

Follow Mutter's example and you can comfortably hold the violin up without relying on support from the left hand, and you won't need a shoulder rest. But you will have to get a centered chinrest, point the fiddle fairly strongly to the left so that it points almost in the same direction as the relaxed shoulder, and allow the back of the fiddle to rest on the full length of the shoulder.

Posted

Hey, thanks for the link. Well worth studying. But of course I've been given advice to hold the instrument farther to the side and further to the front. Still, ask a silly question...

Posted
Look how Anne Sophie Mutter holds the fiddle in the following clip. Pay special attention to the shots from the back, over the shoulder (about 40 seconds into the clip):

Notice that:

--She plays with her chin placed at the center line of the fiddle, with a chinrest whose cup is over the tailpiece. She doesn't place her chin to the left of the tailpiece.

--She points the fiddle to the left so that the center seam of the fiddle (or a line close to that center seam) runs down the length of her shoulder.

--The back of the fiddle is in contact with her shoulder essentially for the entire length of her shoulder.

--She does not lift the left shoulder to elevate the fiddle. She rests the fiddle on essentially a relaxed left shoulder. The result is that the scroll points downward a little bit. It's not at nose level, as some teachers require. ("Hold your violin up," they say, and thus end up requiring the student either to scrunch the shoulder upward, or get a shoulder rest in order to avoid scrunching.)

Follow Mutter's example and you can comfortably hold the violin up without relying on support from the left hand, and you won't need a shoulder rest. But you will have to get a centered chinrest, point the fiddle fairly strongly to the left so that it points almost in the same direction as the relaxed shoulder, and allow the back of the fiddle to rest on the full length of the shoulder.

I always wonder whether Ms. Mutter significantly damps the output of her instrument by having so much of her shoulder in contact with the back of the instrument. The area of the top of the shoulder is about the same as an open hand. If someone puts their hand on the back of your instrument while you are playing it will seriously interfere with sound production. Since Ms. Mutter seems to produce adequate sound I guess that the violin must not be in contact with the entire length of nthe shoulder most of the time.

Posted
Since Ms. Mutter seems to produce adequate sound I guess that the violin must not be in contact with the entire length of nthe shoulder most of the time.

The question is, what is the entire length of the shoulder? Since the shoulder rounds downward at the arm socket, it's hard to define what that length is. But, looking at this clip and other clips of Mutter's playing, it looks like, most of the time, it is the shoulder, and a good portion of it, that gives her support of the fiddle.

Among violinists I've seen who play without shoulder rests, I'd say that most of the time the shoulder has as much contact with the back of the fiddle as contact between two curved objects (curved shoulder and curved violin back) will allow. At any time, the left hand could be removed and the fiddle would still be supported.

Does the shoulder damp the fiddle, producing a less desirable sound? Maybe that varies from fiddle to fiddle. But the list of fine violinists who play or have played without a shoulder rest and produced a great sound is so long that any kind of argument for shoulder rests based on producing a better sound would be on shaky empirical ground.

Who's to say that a shoulder rest that doesn't touch the back of the instrument but squeezes the edge of the back plate and rib garland toward the center doesn't damp the fiddle.

I find that playing without a shoulder rest is more comfortable for me, gives me more security in holding the fiddle, and conversely allows me more freedom to vary the effort used to hold the fiddle (thus reducing fatigue), than a shoulder rest does.

To find out that the shoulder against the fiddle back damps the fiddle is, for me, not important if playing with a shoulder rest leads to more fatigue and less comfort than playing without a shoulder rest does.

Posted
The question is, what is the entire length of the shoulder? Since the shoulder rounds downward at the arm socket, it's hard to define what that length is. But, looking at this clip and other clips of Mutter's playing, it looks like, most of the time, it is the shoulder, and a good portion of it, that gives her support of the fiddle.

Among violinists I've seen who play without shoulder rests, I'd say that most of the time the shoulder has as much contact with the back of the fiddle as contact between two curved objects (curved shoulder and curved violin back) will allow. At any time, the left hand could be removed and the fiddle would still be supported.

Does the shoulder damp the fiddle, producing a less desirable sound? Maybe that varies from fiddle to fiddle. But the list of fine violinists who play or have played without a shoulder rest and produced a great sound is so long that any kind of argument for shoulder rests based on producing a better sound would be on shaky empirical ground.

Who's to say that a shoulder rest that doesn't touch the back of the instrument but squeezes the edge of the back plate and rib garland toward the center doesn't damp the fiddle.

I find that playing without a shoulder rest is more comfortable for me, gives me more security in holding the fiddle, and conversely allows me more freedom to vary the effort used to hold the fiddle (thus reducing fatigue), than a shoulder rest does.

To find out that the shoulder against the fiddle back damps the fiddle is not significant if playing with a shoulder rest leads to more fatigue and less comfort than playing without a shoulder rest does.

I don't want to reactivate the old debate (ad nauseum) of shoulder rest vs. no rest. My remark above was more of a question. Clearly it is a matter of what is more comfortable and effective for the individual. Plenty of excellent players can be found on either side.

Posted

If it's any contribution I do believe the human body resonates. The performer's body feeling is important - I wouldn't think you got that with a shoulder rest. Is a really tall chin rest a better option?

Posted
Is a really tall chin rest a better option?

I don't know if it is a "better" option, but it might be a satisfactory alternative to using a shoulder rest.

If we follow the Mutter model, we'll have to get a chinrest whose cup will fit over the tailpiece. That kind of chinrest will, by necessity of clearing the tailpiece, be a fairly high one. That extra height might make up for the height that a shoulder rest normally takes up, making the shoulder rest unnecessary.

I believe that the best approach to getting someone comfortable with holding a violin is to start with the chinrest alone. Which chinrest allows for the most secure, yet most comfortable hold without a shoulder rest? Find that first. If that chinrest-alone setup doesn't solve all the holding problems, then add a shoulder rest.

I think in a lot of situations people who feel they have to have a shoulder rest could be satisfied with a higher, cup centered over the tailpiece chinrest, alone, along with modifications to their hold in line with the way Mutter holds the fiddle.

How tall should the chinrest be? As high as it needs to be to be comfortable, that is, high enough so that the player doesn't need to scrunch up the left shoulder or flop the head down to the left to get the chin to rest securely on the fiddle. That height might be quite high, higher even than the height required to clear the tailpiece.

Posted
I don't know if it is a "better" option, but it might be a satisfactory alternative to using a shoulder rest.

If we follow the Mutter model, we'll have to get a chinrest whose cup will fit over the tailpiece. That kind of chinrest will, by necessity of clearing the tailpiece, be a fairly high one. That extra height might make up for the height that a shoulder rest normally takes up, making the shoulder rest unnecessary.

I believe that the best approach to getting someone comfortable with holding a violin is to start with the chinrest alone. Which chinrest allows for the most secure, yet most comfortable hold without a shoulder rest? Find that first. If that chinrest-alone setup doesn't solve all the holding problems, then add a shoulder rest.

I think in a lot of situations people who feel they have to have a shoulder rest could be satisfied with a higher, cup centered over the tailpiece chinrest, alone, along with modifications to their hold in line with the way Mutter holds the fiddle.

How tall should the chinrest be? As high as it needs to be to be comfortable, that is, high enough so that the player doesn't need to scrunch up the left shoulder or flop the head down to the left to get the chin to rest securely on the fiddle. That height might be quite high, higher even than the height required to clear the tailpiece.

If you were to see Arnold Steinhardt play in person you would notice that he uses a really high chin rest, the top being more than two inches above the top of the violin. I asked him about it once and he said he had had serious neck pain while playing and the only thing that helped him was a very high chinrest. He said he had his custom made. It was so high I think he would have to have had a modified case to accomodate the high chinrest. Don't know whether he uses a shoulder rest or not. I have read that ergonomically it is better to use a higher chinrest than a high shoulder rest. Re over-the tailpiece versus left of tailpiece for chinrest mounts, some people feel that tone is better with the side mount. Also, supposedly having the cup centered over the tailpiece or to the side relates to the left arm and the ease of playing on the G-string.

Posted
If you were to see Arnold Steinhardt play in person you would notice that he uses a really high chin rest, the top being more than two inches above the top of the violin. I asked him about it once and he said he had had serious neck pain while playing and the only thing that helped him was a very high chinrest. He said he had his custom made. It was so high I think he would have to have had a modified case to accomodate the high chinrest. Don't know whether he uses a shoulder rest or not. I have read that ergonomically it is better to use a higher chinrest than a high shoulder rest. Re over-the tailpiece versus left of tailpiece for chinrest mounts, some people feel that tone is better with the side mount. Also, supposedly having the cup centered over the tailpiece or to the side relates to the left arm and the ease of playing on the G-string.

I remember his chinrest -- it was very high, but then Mr. Steinhardt is also very tall and has a long neck. The design of it was ingenious -- the cup was detachable from the base, so that all you had to do to put the violin in the case was to remove the cup and put it in the storage compartment, and you were good to go. He doesn't use a shoulder rest, but he does put a pad under his jacket.

When I studied with him, there were 2 students of his using the same chinrest, both of whom were tall and had long necks. I tried it for about 3 weeks, but it wasn't comfortable for me. Then again, my neck is relatively short.

In the end, it comes down to comfort. Where are you comfortable holding the instrument without tension and can still play easily? As long as you can do that, it doesn't matter what type of chinrest/shoulder rest combination you're using.

Posted

Gowan and Vlnhunter,

Very much appreciate the info on Steinhardt. Because of his stature as a performer and teacher, his solutions to the struggle to make the fiddle comfortable are especially interesting.

Here's a clip that shows his tall chinrest (about 1:45 into the clip):

Steinhardt's tall chinrest

I measured the height of my own chinrest, an SAS, which mounts to the left of the tailpiece (and thus avoids any supposed acoustic problems of center mounted ones), but has its cup over the tailpiece. The top of the chinrest cup stands about 1 and 1/4 inches above the violin plate edge surface. At that height, the chinrest appears very high to anyone used to the usual chinrest heights, even tall ones like the Flesch.

Two inches would really be high, but, as you've noted, a player should do whatever is comfortable.

I do have problems getting my relatively high chinrest into some cases. Those cases tend to be the less expensive ones in which the foam pad in the case lid that presses down at the tailpiece end of the fiddle is very stiff. I've removed such pads to avoid undue stress on the fiddle.

On better cases, that pad has been pliant enough to avoid undue downward pressure.

But a higher than 1.25 inch chinrest would definitely raise some concerns about excessive pressure in the case. Case makers should realize that some players do want high chinrests, and they should build and equip their cases accordingly, perhaps with a removable case lid pad, that can be easily interchanged with higher or lower pads.

Moving the chinrest cup to the fiddle's center line and playing with the fiddle pointed fairly strongly to the left (as players without shoulder rests tend to do) does have the advantage of not requiring the left elbow to be turned in toward the right as far as shoulder-rest-using players might.

But, again, the only hard and fast rule in relation to chin and shoulder rests is do whatever's comfortable in order to play with ease now and to keep playing the violin or viola as long as possible into later life.

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