Tips for fitting a soundpost?

[T.M.Jepp_Esq]

Hello everyone.

I'm fitting my first soundpost at NSVM and all that my tutor keeps saying to me is that i will make an awful job of it (the lovely guy that he is). Because of this I'd really like to prove him wrong. So, any tips?

[lyndon]

use a fresh blade on a stanley cutter and practise taking tiny tiny amounts off the end, being careful not to go against the grain and split the edge zulu out

[violins88]

Hello everyone.

I'm fitting my first soundpost at NSVM and all that my tutor keeps saying to me is that i will make an awful job of it (the lovely guy that he is). Because of this I'd really like to prove him wrong. So, any tips?

Mr. Jepp,

If YOU were teaching someone a skill, what would you say to that student? How would you approach teaching? Just curious. Is the teacher really negative? Or are you too proud to admit he knows something you don't. I have the similar problem that you do, namely a huge amount of self confidence (which is not warranted). In violin making, self confidence is only useful for fueling your work engine. The German school, I believe, tends to be very authoritarian and tries to first demonstrate that you know nothing, just like the US army does. Break them down and then build them up.

There is another way to teach. Can anyone name teachers who do not use this "break them down first" approach?

I hope this does not sound too negative.

Really, how would you teach yourself? How would you like to be taught? Maybe being in competition with the teacher is a good approach.

[saintjohnbarleycorn]

after many failures i got some 1/4" dowel rod and started practicing on them, that way its not so expensive. and of course patience is the most valuable skill. Some people use chalk, and a good light to see when you are looking in the end pin hole. good luck

[Doug Marples]

A very sharp blade is crucial. I use a violinmaker's knife, some use a chisel. Either way get that baby razor sharp before you start. Then over-estimate the length a bit so that you can just stand the post up a little this side of the center seam with the ends close to square. Then adjust the fit on both ends by increments, checking the fit through the end pin hole and with your mirror so you can see all around the post. You'll be taking it out and replacing it many, many times. On a new instrument I stop the process when I have an excellent fit at a position a couple of tenths of a mm medial (towards the midline) of nominal.

Also, if you wet the ends of the post it's easier to cut very fine end grain shavings, and when you remove it you can see which areas are burnished by contact with the plate-those are the spots to shave first once you're getting close.

The tightness of the post once you're in the proper location is something you have to judge by feel and your teacher will help you with that but basically it needs enough tension that it doesn't wander around with a little bumping of the instrument (unstrung!) but doesn't require massive force on the setter to move it.

Be patient with yourself!

Doug

[lyndon]

usually i find that if the soundpost is fit snug with no string tension the e string is too loud and the g string is weak; they should be balanced irregardless of whether the soundpost stays up without tension or not the way to boost the g and lessen the e is too loosen the soundpost by moving it towards the bassbar, the way one top maker told me and i think they teach at newark the soundpost usually should fall over with no string tension if it is placed optimally for sound, thats why you are supposed to replace strings one at a time, so the soundpost cant fall over. in my experience there is practically no way to get a strong bass without a relatively loose soundpost, not one that moves around with string tension on, thats obviously to loose zulu out

[Janito]

use a fresh blade on a stanley cutter and practise taking tiny tiny amounts off the end, being careful not to go against the grain and split the edge zulu out

I'm not sure I would recommend a fresh (or refreshed) Stanley cutter to someone who says they are at a VM school.

The bevel angle is not ideal for that purpose.

And it is worth spending 26.95secs thinking about the relationship of chisel and blade to the top surface of the post.

[Michael_Molnar]

Hello everyone.

I'm fitting my first soundpost at NSVM and all that my tutor keeps saying to me is that i will make an awful job of it (the lovely guy that he is). Because of this I'd really like to prove him wrong. So, any tips?

Your tutor is not a teacher.

Mike

[lyndon]

i admit some reccomend a chisel. but whatever you use is an intensely personal desicion and a stanley cutter works just fine if your used to using it; it has a tendency to take off too much wood and you have to train yourself to take fine shavings, i think we can all agree a dull blade makes things much worse zulu out

[Oded Kishony]

I locate where the post will be fitted then I fit the post on the outside. I hold the post upright and straight bring it down to the top and trim until all the angles are right. After all, the inside and outside are quite close, right?

Normally, I then cut the post to length, trim the part of the post that will contact the back ( I can usually do the back angle by eye but you can certainly get the back angle the same way as the top, just flip the violin over. )

I like to use MD's method of rotating the post back and forth to fit the bottom.

The post should go in smoothly and when being adjusted should move consistently-not rotate when being adjusted. If it rotates then it isn't fitting properly.

I use this tool with the edge ground to the shape of a fingernail. I also use it to fit bridge feet, trim cleats and many other things. One of the most useful tools I own. Nice that's it's cheap ;-)

Oded

[Roland]

I find a very sharp chisel is a good tool to fit soundposts, but it is certainly a personal choice. You ought to read Michael Darnton's excellent article "Setup" from his Violin Magazine. It covers soundposts fitting and many other setup details - it's extremely helpful! In case I haven't said this, yet: THANK YOU, MICHAEL!!! Have a look at the other articles, too.

[COB3]

"There is another way to teach. Can anyone name teachers who do not use this "break them down first" approach?"

Perhaps it depends on what the particular discipline is that is being taught-- and a little on the attitude of the person receiving the teaching. Some people come with an empty vessel and are easy to fill, so to speak. Others arrive full, and one has to persuade them to empty the bucket before attempting to fill it with something new.

I have taught literally hundreds of men and women the trade in which I work. There were a few knotheads, but mostly I found I did not need to belittle them in any way. I provided encouragement from the beginning, and if it turned out I had a knothead in tow, I simply modified my approach to suit the person. My hope is always to see my students excel beyond my skill...and many have. There were also a very few who simply did not have the ability to learn the skills, and were better employed elsewhere (I'm talking maybe 2-3%).

As a learner, though, I have determined that, if the teacher really, clearly is a master at what I want to learn, then it is profitable for me to subject myself to his curmudgeonly ways and treat everything he says as if it is holy writ...I may later sort things out and decide that he was wrong about some detail, or that it was strictly a personal whim, not necessary to the discipline. Until I achieve mastery myself, however, I am NOT questioning his authority, intelligence, or character. If that really becomes necessary, I need a different teacher.

[violins88]

"There is another way to teach. Can anyone name teachers who do not use this "break them down first" approach?"

Perhaps it depends on what the particular discipline is that is being taught-- and a little on the attitude of the person receiving the teaching. Some people come with an empty vessel and are easy to fill, so to speak. Others arrive full, and one has to persuade them to empty the bucket before attempting to fill it with something new.

I have taught literally hundreds of men and women the trade in which I work. There were a few knotheads, but mostly I found I did not need to belittle them in any way. I provided encouragement from the beginning, and if it turned out I had a knothead in tow, I simply modified my approach to suit the person. My hope is always to see my students excel beyond my skill...and many have. There were also a very few who simply did not have the ability to learn the skills, and were better employed elsewhere (I'm talking maybe 2-3%).

As a learner, though, I have determined that, if the teacher really, clearly is a master at what I want to learn, then it is profitable for me to subject myself to his curmudgeonly ways and treat everything he says as if it is holy writ...I may later sort things out and decide that he was wrong about some detail, or that it was strictly a personal whim, not necessary to the discipline. Until I achieve mastery myself, however, I am NOT questioning his authority, intelligence, or character. If that really becomes necessary, I need a different teacher.

COB,

Well said. What is your trade?

[COB3]

We build railcars and barges. I have worked in steel fabrication of various types (trailers, equipment, bridges, pre-fab building parts, etc.) for most of the last 37 years, and have taught welding, printreading, math, weld inspection and supervision over the last half of that, inceasingly.

As a learner, I am attempting to learn lutherie. I'm currently teaching printreading and welding as adjunct faculty for two local community colleges. ( ...'druther build fiddles...not good enough yet. My time will come...I hope.) :-)

[saintjohnbarleycorn]

sort of off topic , on teaching

I also teach, and taken out of context I guess you could see that remark in two ways. If I knew the student well, and also knowing the difficulty of learning to get a sound post right, I would tell him that in a half joking half serious way. After all it is difficult to get it right, I am still struggling with it and don't expect to feel comfortable with it for a while still. I know I have ruined a number of them with taking a bit too much off at the very last cut. If the man is an egotist then I would agree that he is not a good teacher, even if he can show you how to make a very good violin. Although it sometimes is worth putting up with a load of Horse ++++ to get the info from someone. Given the fact that a lot or areas don't have access to VM schools you may not be lucky enough to have a great teacher. I had to travel 3 hours eahc way to class on the weekend, and he was only open from 10 till 2. I have never regretted it and even if he was not a man I respected it was my only option.

[violins88]

We build railcars and barges. I have worked in steel fabrication of various types (trailers, equipment, bridges, pre-fab building parts, etc.) for most of the last 37 years, and have taught welding, printreading, math, weld inspection and supervision over the last half of that, inceasingly.

As a learner, I am attempting to learn lutherie. I'm currently teaching printreading and welding as adjunct faculty for two local community colleges. ( ...'druther build fiddles...not good enough yet. My time will come...I hope.) :-)

Thanks for sharing that. Quite a jump from steel fabrication to violin making.

[Fellow]

Hello everyone.

I'm fitting my first soundpost at NSVM and all that my tutor keeps saying to me is that i will make an awful job of it (the lovely guy that he is). Because of this I'd really like to prove him wrong. So, any tips?

+++++++++++++++++

Here is how I try it myself.

I look at other people's good set up first, such as violins from a violin shop to have a mental picture where

the soundpost is supposed to be. (subject to some minor adjustments)

Cut a few soundposts of different heights (lengths) Some are a bit long and some are a bit short.

After a few trials, I will get one in place. that is the right one. It is good to have them available when you try to put it up.

The hard part of work is to move the soundpost vertically inside of the violin. In fact, no one can teach you

the skill that requires to get soundpost up without falling down. Do not damage the ceiling of the post area

which is spruce and is quite soft. If you did damage of this area, then you will have other set of issues.

[Johnmasters]

Your tutor is not a teacher.

Mike

I think That one maker uses a .4mm shim often. I don't know how the shim thickness is determined, but I will assume it is this:

Fit the post just firm with the violin string up.** Unstring and measure the decreased distance from top to bottom with a caliper. That is the shim thickness. The shim is maple and goes on the back end.

That stress question again. What is the relation of tone to soundpost-induced stress ?

** Have some hollow brass conical brass endpins for viewing. Mike, since you are an optics expert, you can figure a small pair of lenses to make this perfect. Market them and get rich.

[Dean_Lapinel]

OK

I promised this a long time ago and now I vow to post a tutorial by Sunday on my web page. My method is similar to Oded's but I will go into more detail with photos and options for cutting as well as a good method for using the classic setter.

Sorry for the delay. Will someone please yell at me if I don't post by Sunday?

Thanks-

Dean

P.S. I'll try to do additional tutorials as time goes on. It's my turn to share things I have been taught and things I have learned the hard way

[Joe Leahy]

OK

I promised this a long time ago and now I vow to post a tutorial by Sunday on my web page. My method is similar to Oded's but I will go into more detail with photos and options for cutting as well as a good method for using the classic setter.

Sorry for the delay. Will someone please yell at me if I don't post by Sunday?

Thanks-

Dean

P.S. I'll try to do additional tutorials as time goes on. It's my turn to share things I have been taught and things I have learned the hard way

Thanks Dean, looking forward to it. I will yell softly late Sunday night if required.

[cheapjack]

The way I was taught is to keep a bunch of old soundposts and use them to find the correct length for cutting your new post. Remember that a post that is not fit correctly will turn when you wonk it with your post setter - a correctly cut post should move without turning.

[A. C. Fairbanks]

Can anyone name teachers who do not use this "break them down first" approach?

Hello,

Yes, I can name many...

It seems that you might be confusing teachers with Marine Drill Sergeants.

The gifted teachers I have known build upon the strengths that they see in their students.

All the best,

A.C.

[JohnCockburn]

Your tutor is not a teacher.

Mike

Very harsh, without knowing the context.

[Oded Kishony]

If you lack a tool to measure the length needed for the sound post, (see post #22 above) insert a slender piece of wood into the upper eye of the treble F hole until it touches the back ( make sure it's standing straight, not slanted) and make a mark at the point at which it emerges, that is often very close to the length needed.

Oded

[apartmentluthier]

Wait a minute . . . isn't T.M.Jepp_Esq, ISOC?