Sealers and grounds

[Roger Hill]

No call to get your shorts in a twist, Roger. But, yeah, I bet that's the first time anyone asked a question without doing a search. I realize how extremely helpful Manfio has been in all areas and I apologize to him for asking without searching, but having done it, this thread is probably a good place for his info on this subject to be displayed anyway. Sorry Manfio.

Didn't intend to come off as having knickers in a knot, only to praise Luis as one of our most helpful contributors and let you, a newbie here, know that he has posted a lot on this subject. Also look for his tutorials on scrolls, corners, etc. Everything Luis posts is helpful and on point.

[Bassbow40]

Or perhaps everything is known, but there's so much static that it's impossible to sort it out. For instance, is there any possible varnish/ground material that someone, somewhere, has not already tried and written about? Reflecting on the recent thread about setup, how many permutations and combinations are possible from all of the available info? Trillions?

I think not all was tried and/or discovered... some found are retained and I think is better so.

The violin making world is turnig around a few "secrets" and "mistery".

[Bassbow40]

I forgotten... :) :) B)

[rgwebb6]

Didn't intend to come off as having knickers in a knot, only to praise Luis as one of our most helpful contributors and let you, a newbie here, know that he has posted a lot on this subject. Also look for his tutorials on scrolls, corners, etc. Everything Luis posts is helpful and on point.

I appreciate the intent, Roger. If I were actually a newbie, your post would have been very helpful. For that I thank you. But I have been a member since March 2002 and have 182 posts. I'm just a very part time hobby maker and often come up with questions others may think are pretty basic. (I am also not very swift when it comes to the chemistry involved in violin making. Anyway thanks for trying to keep me straight.

[NewNewbie]

gowan wrote:

Absolutely NOT. There is a ton we have little knowledge of, in particular what, if any, acoustical method they used. Plenty of clues out there for anyone willing to spend the time and energy to look.

Oded

I agree and there has been such a small sampling of instruments tested along with the results reported, that I would not be surprised that we find more variations, if we keep testing more instruments.

The problem is will anyone want to test old varnish samples "IF" now the 'secret' is no longer believed to be in the varnish.

[Craig Tucker]

The problem is will anyone want to test old varnish samples "IF" now the 'secret' is no longer believed to be in the varnish.

Worriest theyself not, Newb.

I think that most makers have survived the transition from "the secret of the wonderful tone is in the varnish" to "There is no connection between the varnish and the wonderful tone" pretty well. That is, if they ever were fooled that the "secret" of the Cremonese sound was entirely "in the varnish" to begin with...

Ok, that said..., there is still plenty of "secret" in the Cremonese varnish, in that, the visual effect, as you can tell by the various posters who almost lack the words to describe the wonderful visual presence of some of these instruments, is still an elusive goal to attain - so, I would say that, while there was no great secret to Strads (or Del Gesu - name your favorite) varnish that gave them their wonderful tone - at the same time, there still WAS, no, make that, there still IS a secret -specifically about the varnish - to chase. (too much of a run-on sentence?)

"The secret of the Cremonese look"

Don't ask me, I can only look at the posters, and it isn't in the posters. The last time someone brought a Strad or Del Gesu in to the shop for repair was last lifetime, and I cannot remember it all that well!

[mayofiddler6]

Pollens says that Cozio was complaining in correspondence about how many awful violins the old masters made, so bad that he had to send heaps of them off for immediate "improvement" (read "destroying the plates"). That included a heap of them direct from Strad's workshop with badly glued bassbars etc.

Now, maybe Strad's heirs hastily flung those together to sell to Cozio. However, I suspect the old guys had their good and bad days and only the good fiddles have survived. It's been said before, but probably bears restating as we seem to be drifting towards "What is/are the secret(s)?" again.

Interesting thread though, thanks to the contributors - even though the thought of encasing something in shellac horrifies me. I've never plucked up the courage.

I take it the latest Strad varnish research that was so avidly discussed here not many weeks ago is now considered to be written by "them" and we should close our eyes and stick our fingers in our ears?

[Don Noon]

...the thought of encasing something in shellac horrifies me. I've never plucked up the courage.

I take it the latest Strad varnish research that was so avidly discussed here not many weeks ago is now considered to be written by "them" and we should close our eyes and stick our fingers in our ears?

I believe most shellac users do not "encase", but rather keep the film to an absolute minimum as a barrier to oil-soaking.

We don't know how long it took Strad's varnish to dry out, but I would expect it would be rather on the long side. Perhaps they were dull-sounding for the first 50 years? I personally want my fiddles to sound good in my remaining lifetime, preferably right away, and I'm trying to find finishing materials/techniques with that in mind. So, what Strad did may be interesting, but if it doesn't work as good as something else, it' academic only.

[robedney]

It's quite clear (to me) that there is not one Strad varnish. It's look, texture and colors changed over the years. So a variety of ingredients are to be expected.

Oded

An oft overlooked issue. There is every reason to believe that there were variations. Remember, Antonio was in business to make a living. It's unlikely that he worshiped his own varnish. Changes in raw materials, availability issues, experimentation, happy mistakes and more very likely played a role.

[Oded Kishony]

In acoustic tests of varnish ingredients shellac fared pretty well. It was more or less neutral in damping and speed of sound properties. Neither increasing nor decreasing from the bare wood.

This 'neutrality' might actually be of some benefit if tonal adjustments are made to the outside of the white instrument.

Nineteenth century English authors writing about violins liked to rail about how shellac kills the sound but there is no basis for their prejudice. Of course if applied too thickly anything can mute the sound but done judiciously shellac is fine.

Oded

[stradofear]

. . .even though the thought of encasing something in shellac horrifies me.

At this point, the question I'd be asking myself would be "How did I come to this opinion, was that process valid, and should I re-evaluate?"

[MANFIO]

For tone reasons, a thin uncoloured shellac coat would be the best thing, but players would frown upon the instruments, even if they sounded great.

By the way, I love this part of HILL`S book on Stradivari:

"If players would be content with instruments treated with colourless varnish, the difficulty of producing fine tone would be very greatly dimisnished, as the addition of many and various injurious colouring substances, or the artificial staining of the wood (at sometimes accoplished by the use of acids) in order to please the eye, in the one case mars what would be a varnish favourable for tone, and in the other adversely affects the material from which the instrument is made. In fact, tone is, and has been, though often unintentionally, sacrified by many through seeking to gratify the taste for mere outward appearence. The great influence of time is not suffiently taken in account when the ordinary observer compares the newly varnished work with the old. As well try to change quickly new wine into old as try to obtain in a short time the richly matured and soft-toned appearence wich age alone can impart to perfectly varnished violins.

Could we have seen the most brilliant works of Italian violin-makers fresh form their hands, we should have been not a little surprised by their bright and unsubdued aspect; nay, in many instances, notably with regard to some of the violins of Joseph Guarnerius, we would have been struck by their positively crude appearance. The conditions for ultimately ensureing a fine appearance were certainly there; but to the wonder-working effects of time and use, and to these alone, we unhesitatingly attibute all that charms us now. That the more ambitious of modern makers should have sought to rival the productions of the old masters in external appearance is readily conceivable - however injudicious at times their procedure - when we bear in mind the popular demand for athing of beauty. An ugly or even plain instrument, though excellent in tone, is again and again rejected. Many may view this statement with incredulity; it is nevertheless strictly true, and the statement is the outcome of innumerable experiences." (see the chapter on varnish).

[Johnmasters]

In acoustic tests of varnish ingredients shellac fared pretty well. It was more or less neutral in damping and speed of sound properties. Neither increasing nor decreasing from the bare wood.

This 'neutrality' might actually be of some benefit if tonal adjustments are made to the outside of the white instrument.

Nineteenth century English authors writing about violins liked to rail about how shellac kills the sound but there is no basis for their prejudice. Of course if applied too thickly anything can mute the sound but done judiciously shellac is fine.

Oded

What about stiffening the cross grain? Is this an issue at all? Does one want to do this, does it degrade the sound a little bit, or improve it?

How many people have played their violins white and then just after the first sealer coat?

[mayofiddler6]

At this point, the question I'd be asking myself would be "How did I come to this opinion, was that process valid, and should I re-evaluate?"

Indeed, indeed. I was waffling aloud as I usually do. I tend to write as I'm thinking, a bad habit. In fact this thread has more or less motivated me to try it out on the next one. I'll still be cringing until it dries and I hear it though (and maybe afterwards!)

[Oded Kishony]

How many people have played their violins white and then just after the first sealer coat?

John I've done this dozens of times.

There is some stiffening across grain but if lightly applied it is not very significant. Certainly no more so than most any other sealer.

Oded

[Johnmasters]

John I've done this dozens of times.

There is some stiffening across grain but if lightly applied it is not very significant. Certainly no more so than most any other sealer.

Oded

Not significantly worse or not significantlly better?

Do you want to minimize this stiffening of the cross grain or make it stiffer ? I have done it too. I like the improvement of white violins with ammonia casein.

( " any other sealers mentioned ..." )

[Oded Kishony]

But is it good or bad. Do you want to minimize it or make the cross-grain significantly stronger? I have done it too. I like the improvement of white violins with ammonia casein.

I wouldn't want to make a blanked statement that it is always good or always bad but generally it seems to often improve focus and volume.

Oded

[mayofiddler6]

Fry slaps some glue (or casein I can't remember) inside, in the area around the soundpost to deliberately stiffen the cross-grain in that area.

[Wm. Johnston]

If I remember correctly wasn't shellac often applied 'hot' in the old days? I think that I remember reading that it was applied to wood turnings while they were spinning on the lathe and the heat melted the stick of shellac which then solidified in a thin coating on the wood. There are other ways that melted shellac is also used. If Strad did use shellac to fill in his bee-stings then it would probably have been best applied hot rather than disolved in a solvent since a solution could have bled into the surrounding wood, carrying the black coloring with it.

I'm not saying whether I think the old guys used shellac or not but I don't think the ready availability of strong alcohol is good proof that shellac couldn't have been used. That would at best rule out one modern application method.

[Johnmasters]

I wouldn't want to make a blanked statement that it is always good or always bad but generally it seems to often improve focus and volume.

Oded

That is what I notice with the white violins and the casein.

[Johnmasters]

If I remember correctly wasn't shellac often applied 'hot' in the old days? I think that I remember reading that it was applied to wood turnings while they were spinning on the lathe and the heat melted the stick of shellac which then solidified in a thin coating on the wood. There are other ways that melted shellac is also used. If Strad did use shellac to fill in his bee-stings then it would probably have been best applied hot rather than disolved in a solvent since a solution could have bled into the surrounding wood, carrying the black coloring with it.

I'm not saying whether I think the old guys used shellac or not but I don't think the ready availability of strong alcohol is good proof that shellac couldn't have been used. That would at best rule out one modern application method.

I have often thought of this too, even if they did it just to save money on thinners.

[Wm. Johnston]

Oil on wood is generally not thought to be good acoustically.

On a recent violin I applied a very small amount of boiled linseed oil to the wood. At first the violin became a little muffled but after a few days in the sun it returned to how it was prior to applying the oil. I think that as long as you apply just a little then there is no harm done. I think that any varnish/ground would mute a violin similarly when it is still liquid.

[Oded Kishony]

At first the violin became a little muffled but after a few days in the sun it returned to how it was prior to applying the oil. I think that as long as you apply just a little then there is no harm done. I think that any varnish/ground would mute a violin similarly when it is still liquid.

That's probably true.

It reminds me of a time when a young woman singled me out to show me her cello. Specifically, she wanted me to see the superb varnish on the instrument. When I saw it I was appalled to find an instrument completely soaked in oil. It had accumulated a thick layer of dirt attracted to the sticky oil. I don't know how she managed to play the thing. But she sure was proud of it and she assured me that after a while it would transform into a classic Cremonese varnish.

Oded Kishony

[Woodgrinder]

If I remember correctly wasn't shellac often applied 'hot' in the old days? I think that I remember reading that it was applied to wood turnings while they were spinning on the lathe and the heat melted the stick of shellac which then solidified in a thin coating on the wood. There are other ways that melted shellac is also used. If Strad did use shellac to fill in his bee-stings then it would probably have been best applied hot rather than disolved in a solvent since a solution could have bled into the surrounding wood, carrying the black coloring with it.

[snip...]

It's not just the old days -- I have applied stick shellac to woodturnings, although I get better control with a 1 - 3 lb cut.

No, wait. If I've done it, it COULD be the old days.

Shellac sticks are widely used in furniture restoration and repair, eg:

http://www.woodcraft.com/Family/2005531/LI...lac-Sticks.aspx

But I usually melt the flakes down myself, adding color to match. For black, I've had good success with copy/laser toner -- it's REALLY black.

I would think you'd need to watch closely when applying ground to make sure it doesn't dissolve the hot-melt shellac.

[Bassbow40]

I only tried it on samples, and the damping increased significantly... so I didn't try it on an instrument. It was thick, though, and certainly the thinner you can get it, the less the effect should be.

If your test was made a long time ago could you retest the same sample e compare the results?

G.