Sealers and grounds

[Janito]

I have just read the section that MM is referring to in Pollens' book.

Unfortunately, in the various reports it is not made clear what would constitute an absolute molecular signature of shellac and whether there are any other materials that could mascarade as such.

However, to Pollens' credit he does indicate where some of the samples were taken from.

[stradofear]

It's quite clear (to me) that there is not one Strad varnish. It's look, texture and colors changed over the years. So a variety of ingredients are to be expected.

I think it would be a mistake, though, to conclude that all of the different effects are from entirely different, unrelated, varnish materials and colors. If you group them up into varnish and color types, there actually seem to be relatively few. A modern example comes from Carl Becker: over the last 90+ years there are many apparent variations in color, texture, and clarity on Becker family instruments, but when I asked him about it, he told me that it was all basically the same stuff, handled differently (and getting better through time, too).

[rgwebb6]

I am wondering what Manfio uses as a ground on the really beautiful instruments he makes. I hope he chimes in at some point.

[Johnmasters]

I think it would be a mistake, though, to conclude that all of the different effects are from entirely different, unrelated, varnish materials and colors. If you group them up into varnish and color types, there actually seem to be relatively few. A modern example comes from Carl Becker: over the last 90+ years there are many apparent variations in color, texture, and clarity on Becker family instruments, but when I asked him about it, he told me that it was all basically the same stuff, handled differently (and getting better through time, too).

I think that is why I believe that chemistry alone is not the right mentality. The same physical properties could be attained in different ways with variation in materials. After all, it is the physical properties one wants.

[MANFIO]

Well, ok, here we go:

1 - Quite strong "undrinkable" tea to make the wood darker plus sun light (or UV BOX), 2 or 3 coats;

2 - My oi varnish (Marciana) diluted in turpentine, 2 coats (another variation of a Strado Darnton idea).

3 - My oil varnish (Marciana) with some pumice and burnish it over the wood, leaving no pumice residue over the wood (I take the excess with a rag with some kerosene) (Neil Ertz tip).

4 - Immediatly after that my oil varnish (Marciana) spread in a thin coat with my fingers.

5 - If I see that there is too much ground over the wood when it's dry I may remove the excess with allcohol and a rag. I don't want to see a thick coat of ground over the wood, the thinner the better (sometime it will be all inside the wood).

6 - after that 2 coats of Magister's Doratura Rossa heavily coloured with Alizarin and bitumen diluted in Kerosene to brushing consistency.

[Roger Hill]

I am wondering what Manfio uses as a ground on the really beautiful instruments he makes. I hope he chimes in at some point.

He has told us a number of times. Just do a search of his posts for keyword "ground". Basically an old varnish formula plus something gritty.........Manfio is VERY free with his help. Just like Michael

edit: Well, I was typing as Luis was typing. Think we got it covered.

[lyndon]

may i suggest a career in french polishing for the shellac freaks and leave violins alone zulu out :)

[Mike_Danielson]

Applying scientific methods to Strad violin varnish is complicated and sometimes contradictory. It requires some study and a decent memory. Critical thinking.

I have a simpler method: let us get a psychic and have this person "channel" Antonio Stradivarius. Then we can ask him how he did it. I know there is an interest in this type of thing because Deena Spears sold a lot of copies of her book "Ears of the Angels." Two psychics come to mind--Sylvia Browne and John Edwards (TV moderator of Crossover). This method would be so much easier. Anyone out there psychic or willing to take on this project?

Mike D

[stradofear]

Maybe I already talked to Stradivari, and he told me to buzz off? Remember, Nick Amati was the one with the generosity who taught a bunch of people violin making. I see Stradivari as a sort of a drag, probably too serious and not a lot of fun. And look who he trained, and what they did!!! No, he's not the guy to learn from. He'd tell you the secret was goat poop just to see if you'd try it. :-)

[MANFIO]

I would be much more interested in the varnish and ground Andrea Amati used in the Violino Carlo IX, 1566 circa, in Cremona's Museum, that's the most fantastic varnish I have ever seen! The world is too "stradcentered"...

[Ken Pollard]

Maybe I already talked to Stradivari, and he told me to buzz off? Remember, Nick Amati was the one with the generosity who taught a bunch of people violin making. I see Stradivari as a sort of a drag, probably too serious and not a lot of fun. And look who he trained, and what they did!!! No, he's not the guy to learn from. He'd tell you the secret was goat poop just to see if you'd try it. :-)

Fortunately, we just bought a new almond tree to plant, so now I have another use for all that goat poop I have saved up. I'm not too happy with Antonio's specter, though.

[jmannsback]

"The world is too "stradcentered"..."

You are probably right - perhaps the world should become more "del Gesu-centered".

LULU in

[CT Dolan]

"The world is too "stradcentered"..."

You are probably right - perhaps the world should become more "del Gesu-centered".

I'm trying to look seriously beyond the work of these two. Yes, it is (was) marvelous, but there have been so many others who have come along as well, who also did marvelous work and who were also very historically important.

BTW, I would tend to agree with Stradofear, Antonio is probably not the one to channel...

[Bill Yacey]

BTW, I would tend to agree with Stradofear, Antonio is probably not the one to channel...

Antonio would probably say " What's the matter with you wing nuts? I wrote the recipe out in detail on the flyleaf of my Bible for all; it's not my problem it was misplaced. Why would you want to use that obsolete stuff anyways, with modern urethanes and polyester resins available now?"

[Jacob]

may i suggest a career in french polishing for the shellac freaks and leave violins alone zulu out :)

I'm just wondering whether you actually know what shellac is...whether you have any experience with it's application, appearance, properties...

Complete ignorance of the substance seems to me to the only realistic explanation for your rants about it.

[robertdo]

Maybe I already talked to Stradivari, and he told me to buzz off? Remember, Nick Amati was the one with the generosity who taught a bunch of people violin making. I see Stradivari as a sort of a drag, probably too serious and not a lot of fun. And look who he trained, and what they did!!! No, he's not the guy to learn from. He'd tell you the secret was goat poop just to see if you'd try it. :-)

Remember what Heifetz said " Stradivari is more famous than Guarneri because he had a better press relation officer... :-)

But more seriously since I started to look into violin making (very recently though) I am a little bit surprised that the Amati family is so understated. And however it seems that the first real violins known were made by these luthiers. Maybe they didn't invent violin but they came probably very soon after.

[rgwebb6]

He has told us a number of times. Just do a search of his posts for keyword "ground". Basically an old varnish formula plus something gritty.........Manfio is VERY free with his help. Just like Michael

edit: Well, I was typing as Luis was typing. Think we got it covered.

No call to get your shorts in a twist, Roger. But, yeah, I bet that's the first time anyone asked a question without doing a search. I realize how extremely helpful Manfio has been in all areas and I apologize to him for asking without searching, but having done it, this thread is probably a good place for his info on this subject to be displayed anyway. Sorry Manfio.

[MANFIO]

No, no reason to apologize, you are wellcome!!!

[Craig Tucker]

I'm just wondering whether you actually know what shellac is...whether you have any experience with it's application, appearance, properties...

Complete ignorance of the substance seems to me to the only realistic explanation for your rants about it.

I agree completely.

Perhaps if we just ignore the problem, it will eventually wander off?

[gowan]

Maybe I already talked to Stradivari, and he told me to buzz off? Remember, Nick Amati was the one with the generosity who taught a bunch of people violin making. I see Stradivari as a sort of a drag, probably too serious and not a lot of fun. And look who he trained, and what they did!!! No, he's not the guy to learn from. He'd tell you the secret was goat poop just to see if you'd try it. :-)

Judging from his producing over 1000 instruments, even with the help of his sons and some others, I'd say Antonio Stradivari was likely not to be a very interesting person to know socially. Likely he was a work-a-holic, obssessed with doing the work, with no interest in talking about how he did it. And, actually, except for his varnish recipe(s), his work speaks for itself. As for what could be written down on paper in an intelligible way, don't you think we've pretty well figured out everything but the varnish? Certainly there are things like wood selection and dealing on the fly with irregularities in the wood that are seat-of-the-pants sorts of things where his genius shows but which can't really be taught. And his genius at aging (for 300 years) his instruments is phenominal.

Then there is Guarneri "del Gesu", who didn't have very many (any?) disciples either, and whose work style was so free that it probably coudn't be codified or taught. "Just do it the way I do."

I don't know who it was but someone once said that "Genius is what you can't teach to someone else."

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

Del Gesù was a product of his time and heritage. The only genius that I can think of is Andrea Amati.

[Oded Kishony]

gowan wrote:

don't you think we've pretty well figured out everything but the varnish?

Absolutely NOT. There is a ton we have little knowledge of, in particular what, if any, acoustical method they used. Plenty of clues out there for anyone willing to spend the time and energy to look.

Oded

[stradofear]

Or perhaps everything is known, but there's so much static that it's impossible to sort it out. For instance, is there any possible varnish/ground material that someone, somewhere, has not already tried and written about? Reflecting on the recent thread about setup, how many permutations and combinations are possible from all of the available info? Trillions?

[JohnCockburn]

Well, ok, here we go:

1 - Quite strong "undrinkable" tea to make the wood darker plus sun light (or UV BOX), 2 or 3 coats;

2 - My oi varnish (Marciana) diluted in turpentine, 2 coats (another variation of a Strado Darnton idea).

3 - My oil varnish (Marciana) with some pumice and burnish it over the wood, leaving no pumice residue over the wood (I take the excess with a rag with some kerosene) (Neil Ertz tip).

4 - Immediatly after that my oil varnish (Marciana) spread in a thin coat with my fingers.

5 - If I see that there is too much ground over the wood when it's dry I may remove the excess with allcohol and a rag. I don't want to see a thick coat of ground over the wood, the thinner the better (sometime it will be all inside the wood).

6 - after that 2 coats of Magister's Doratura Rossa heavily coloured with Alizarin and bitumen diluted in Kerosene to brushing consistency.

Not using Sodium Nitrite any more, Luis?

[Oded Kishony]

Or perhaps everything is known, but there's so much static that it's impossible to sort it out. For instance, is there any possible varnish/ground material that someone, somewhere, has not already tried and written about? Reflecting on the recent thread about setup, how many permutations and combinations are possible from all of the available info? Trillions?

Yes, I think there's lots that has never been written about, at least publicly. Your point is well taken, there is plenty of 'static'.

"Trillions" ?

At least ;-)

Oded