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[Bowler Hat]

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[Brad Dorsey]

is it worth it to have this bow repaired to working order, or should I make some fancy tooth picks?

The problems that I see are butt cracks, no hair and no tip. The cracks are easy to glue and rehairing is standard. The tip is a bit of a project which I'm not sure if this bow merits, but it could be rehaired without a tip. (A more valuable bow should not be rehaired without a tip, because this risks damaging the head.)

I heard that the Hills used make broken Tourte sticks into pens.

[Craig Tucker]

Hello All,

Cutting to the quick, is it worth it to have this bow repaired to working order, or should I make some fancy tooth picks? (Bets are I'll give it to a conductor friend to make a baton)

In order to answer you, I need to know a bit more about what your goals are with regard to lutherie.

If your goal is to learn how to do this stuff, what do you have to lose by fixing it?

If this isn't your goal, then don't bother with it, as these jobs can be a real task.

So, what is you goal with this venture?

I don't work in a high end shop, and, as a rule, I don't handle high end gear.

So, damn near EVERYTHING that comes in the door, either gets rebuilt, stripped for parts, or trashed outright.

Objects that get trashed are usually either broken in half - or just too cheap to bother with.

A bow that is decent (decent wood - stiff enought to work) but which has simply been neglicted, will get cleaned, perhaps refinished, get a new wrap - a new tip, (as needed) and a rehair.

Through the years I have ended up with boxes and boxes of various bow parts.

If you've never replaced a tip, this could be a perfect primer for you. It is (opposed to what might be expected) a big job, so, again, what you want to do, what your goals are, is of paramount importance. Even redoing a wrap is a big project if you have never done it before.

I say use this bow to start learning how to do these things, since there apparently is no pressure, or just let it go.

[Craig Tucker]

If you've never replaced a tip, this could be a perfect primer for you. It is (opposed to what might be expected) a big job, so, again, what you want to do, what your goals are, is of paramount importance. Even redoing a wrap is a big project if you have never done it before.

I say use this bow to start learning how to do these things, since there apparently is no pressure, or just let it go.

Hint;

There was an exellent thread here on Mnet only a month or two back, about tip replacement, where various members showed how they bent the tip, and what jigs and clamps they used for the process.

[skiingfiddler]

Is it worth fixing?

I think the answer is no, if you have to pay someone else to do it.

If you want to learn something about bow repair and do it yourself, then CT's and Brad's responses apply.

If you hope to have a good playing bow, whether fixed by you or someone else, I don't think that will be the result.

I have to tell you, conductors, if they use a baton, can be rather fussy. I wanted to give away what I thought was a really nice baton to an advanced music student studying conducting. The baton had a dark, hardwood handle (maybe walnut) with a 12 inch (thereabouts) tapered, aluminum shaft extending from the handle, and a series of rounded collars between handle and shaft where baton could rest, well balanced, on the index finger. It had a wood sheath covered in leather. The conductor turned it down, suggesting it would make a great blackboard pointer for a classroom teacher.

[Joseph Liu]

Definitely not worth fixing. Sorry to say.

[Brad Dorsey]

In order to answer you, I need to know a bit more about what your goals are with regard to lutherie.

If your goal is to learn how to do this stuff, what do you have to lose by fixing it?

If this isn't your goal, then don't bother with it, as these jobs can be a real task.

The original question was "is it worth it to have this bow repaired to working order," so I assumed that Bowler Hat was asking about the advisability of paying someone else to do the work.

[Craig Tucker]

The original question was "is it worth it to have this bow repaired to working order," so I assumed that Bowler Hat was asking about the advisability of paying someone else to do the work.

In which case, paying a professional, it most likely isn't worth the effort, as you could put the same money into a much better bow - (new or used) for much less money.

For me, since I do all of the work myself, I like the challenge of repairing very neglected bows. I even opt to re camber (and/or straighten out any crooks) them now, which was my least favorite job not long ago.

[Josh Henry]

Hi Neil, I would need a bit more information as to this bow's playability, value, and origin in regards to recommending the repair or destruction of this bow. However, I am happy to comment on what I would do in repairing the cracks in the end of the stick.

In the times where the butt-end of the stick is cracked in a single place, simply cleaning and regluing it will often be fine to establish the strength of the stick. However, in your pictures, there are at least 2 or 3 cracks at the lower screw hole that should be repaired and reinforced. I don't know if there is any official name to the repair that I am about to describe, but I would do a "blind ring" repair on this bow. I recently did a repair very similar to this that I photographed to include on my website, and here are some pictures and a brief description of the process.

First, I would clean the break with acetone to clean out rosin, varnish, grease, glue, oil, etc. from the break. Then, I would glue the cracks, clamping them by wrapping string around the stick. I would then use a hollow cutter to cut a channel around the nipple to insert a small brass ring. The cutter is something that I specifically made for this application. I press in a small ring into the cut recess, then backfill the hole with wood dust and glue. The ring is made from a brass tube where the inside diameter is about the same size as the typical diameter of a stick nipple. The final step is to reestablish the surface at the end of the bow for the button to turn smoothly.

By the way, this is a process that I typically do only on student bows and bows that are not of significant value. This repair works very well, but I tend to do the more traditional repair approach on valuable bows. On higher valued bows, I typically would glue the cracks, then enlarge and rebush the hole, rather than inserting a metal ring into the stick.

[Ed Shillitoe]

The cutter is something that I specifically made for this application.

Very clever Josh! Can you give some details of the cutter and how you made it? Presumably a similar cutter is used for installing the ring around the pearl eye in the frog?

Ed

[Josh Henry]

Very clever Josh! Can you give some details of the cutter and how you made it? Presumably a similar cutter is used for installing the ring around the pearl eye in the frog?

Ed

Hi Ed, My inspiration for making this cutter came to me one time when I was using a holesaw to install a doorknob.

I made this cutter almost entirely on my lathe. The metal that I started with was actually a piece cut off of an old bent cello endpin. The first thing that I did was to cut down the outside diameter (mine is 6.5mm). Then, I used a 5.5mm endmill and bored the hole into the end (about 6 or 7mm deep). Then the last step on the lathe is to drill the centering hole for the pin. I used a #31 drill bit (.120"/3.0mm) and drilled into the middle of the cutter. I then took the same drill bit (now dull), cut off the end with twisted flutes, and glued the drill bit tang into the centering hole. The purpose of the centering bit is to guide the cutter, keeping the bit centered on the original screwhole and nipple.The final step is to file by hand the saw teeth that do the cutting into the end of the stick. I primarily use this cutting bit in my hand-operated bow maker's drill (the French call it a Foray), but I've also used it in my cordless electric drill.

If you are going to make a tool like this, I would recommend that you first find your brass tubing that you cut the rings from. Then make your cutter the same size as the ring tubing. I made the cutter first, then had trouble finding the right sized tubing. I finally found some through a hobby/craft store. You can find similar tubing from MSC, the Small Parts catalog, and probably other places on the net.

[Bowler Hat]

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[skiingfiddler]

Bowler Hat,

There's a bit of a learning curve with the search facility in Maestronet, and I won't pretend to be all that proficient. But searches started working the way I wanted them to when I did the following:

When you click on the search tab at the top right of this page, a window comes up. Let's call it window #1. Enter nothing there. Instead click on the "more search options" button in window #1. This brings up another window. Let's call it "window #2." Enter nothing there. Instead click on the "more options" button in window #2. Another window pops up. Enter your search parameters in this third window, and click the "perform the search" button (and not the "simple mode" button) at the bottom of this third window. For example, if you enter "bow tips" as the search key words in this third window and highlight "pegbox" as the forum you want, you'll get lots of threads related to bow tips.

[Craig Tucker]

I'll take the idea of 'why not' and go for it. While I do not have ivory, I do have a few bits of purple heart wood, as well as brass, I propose either of those as the Tip replacement (what ever the term for that sliver of ivory is, I have no idea). But I worry that there is some, taboo over placing weight on the end of the bow, or worse, that aforementioned materials will 'saw' at the bow hairs.

So then, what says you?

Until then, I'll keep looking for history on this topic on Maestronet via- Google...seeing as I can't figure out the search bar on this site. Imagine that and me at a Technical College *shakes head* Alas, off to my next endeavor!

Cool.

Don't worry Bowler Hat, there is a taboo in the violin world, for just about everything you can think of.

Be inventive anyway - you'll be in good company.

I have a friend who is a silversmith (and who has made over 90 violins) who does wonderful tip replacements, using soldered sterling silver sheet material, (for jewelry) and a decorative edge wrapped around the tip.

I'd consider using brass, and I'd probably wind up scuffing the inside surface and then using epoxy to glue it to the bare tip wood, and perhaps I'd simply round the edge a TINY bit with a sanding stick or needle file, where the hair turns against the mortise opening if it is too sharp, which it probably won't be by the time you're done making the opening...

Note;

That much or that little added weight might theoretically be either a good or a bad thing for the bow, depending on where the balance point of the stick is, and how it plays - personally, I wouldn't worry too much about it either way with this bow.

If you do use brass, the brass must be bent to match the curve of the tip exactly.... and making the mortise opening for the hair is going to be a meticulous little task in any case, what ever material you use - including a commercial bone tip replacement.

I've made many tips and tip repairs for needy bows out of various woods , bone (commercial tip replacement), plastic (including the cheap plastic commercial tip replacements that are available), straight up ebony, straight rosewood, and etc. when it means that an old bow can get ten (or fifty) more years of use and not wind up in the trash or in the junk pile...

You will see that every task for making the bow return to life is demanding (demanding a skill that you possibly don't have yet...) in some way, including the rehair.

My opinion is that this is a brave venture - and it is difficult for me to recommend exactly what you should do with this bow - since I don't have any idea what your skill set is, or what your personal drive is - but I do know that, for me, it is always a chosen option to make something work, rather than throw it away - or consign it to the junk pile, but this is a part of what I do for a living.

With bows, I did start years ago with absolutely no formal training.

You can get online and find all the replacement parts you need, or, you can wing it with "found" material - it is entirely up to you.

See my PM about the rehair.

[Nicolas Temino]

And if everything else doesn't work....you can allways find a new use for the bow. The last bow I tried to fix came unreparaible, so now is holding one of my tomato plants as a growing guide.

[Craig Tucker]

And if everything else doesn't work....you can allways find a new use for the bow. The last bow I tried to fix came unreparaible, so now is holding one of my tomato plants as a growing guide.

I cannot wait for the growing season here - and the last three days prove that it is just around the corner.

Everything depends on the stick.

If the stick is good, but just neglected, then the repairs are standard fare for a bow repairman.

If the stick is no good, just get rid of it.

Of course, this can be a learning experience.

Why practice on a good bow, when an inconsequential stick is available?

[jonfrohnen]

LOL, good strong bows work well as locks if you place them in the track of your sliding glass door...juuuuust enough give to fool your potential burglar hehehe :-)