Book: Cremona Violins

[Michael_Molnar]

I just received notice from Amazon.com that "Cremona Violins: A Physicist's Quest for Secrets of Stradivari" by Kameshwar Wali was shipped. The book is now in stock. Anyone read the book?

Stay tuned.

Mike

[mayofiddler6]

Somebody should trademark that tired old phrase "Secrets of Stradivari" they'd make a fortune.

Haven't read the book but I'll buy it for the DVD. I'd like to see Fry's demos in detail. Thanks for the link. I've made a couple of nice violins using Fry's grads for the backplates only (have my own prefs for the table), although I didn't discover anything amazingly different from any other grads I've used. But they seem to do no harm.

[Nicolas Temino]

Somebody should trademark that tired old phrase "Secrets of Stradivari" they'd make a fortune.

Haven't read the book but I'll buy it for the DVD. I'd like to see Fry's demos in detail. Thanks for the link. I've made a couple of nice violins using Fry's grads for the backplates only (have my own prefs for the table), although I didn't discover anything amazingly different from any other grads I've used. But they seem to do no harm.

I know the secrets of Stradivari: Good timber, work, passion and heart.

[JimMurphy]

"Cremona Violins: A Physicist's Quest for Secrets of Stradivari" by Kameshwar Wali

From the Product Description: This book ... is primarily devoted to the physics behind the violin acoustics, ... reproducing the sound of the great Italian masters ...

I wonder if "the sound" above refers to the smooth, clear Old Italian sound rather than noisier variants thereof ??

From a "Physics" standpoint, there should be a single basis for violin acoustics.

Jim

[Jacob]

From the Product Description: This book ... is primarily devoted to the physics behind the violin acoustics, ... reproducing the sound of the great Italian masters ...

I wonder if "the sound" above refers to the smooth, clear Old Italian sound rather than noisier variants thereof ??

From a "Physics" standpoint, there should be a single basis for violin acoustics.

Jim

From the Product Description: This book ... is primarily devoted to the physics behind the violin acoustics, ... reproducing the sound of the great Italian masters ...

I wonder if "the sound" above refers to the smooth, clear Old Italian sound rather than noisier variants thereof ??

From a Physics standpoint, there should be a single basis for violin acoustics.

____________________________

Now then, how does that post look after some weeding? Easier to read, for sure, with a less whining tone.

Not that it redeems the content in any way though.

[Michael_Molnar]

My book arrived this afternoon. It has DVD worth viewing before reading.

Stay tuned.

[mayofiddler6]

Very interesting vid. Much as I find it hard to believe, I can clearly hear the differences made by the small scrapings. To be honest I preferred the penultimate sound to the "final" one but as he said, it's personal taste.

Look forward to starting the book tonight. Despite the sometimes rambling nature of the video, Fry is very good at explaining the basics of his ideas in simple language.

[catnip]

I just got my book and DVD today and was looking forward to playing the DVD but it is damaged and won't play at all. I sent the seller an email about this and am hoping to hear back from them soon.

What am I missing on the DVD?

I have seen a PBS video many years ago showing Professor Fry's analogy of a violin plate with that of a trampoline and how the soundpost's position is equivalent to bouncing up and down from an off-center position ... hence asymmetrical graduations.

[mayofiddler6]

It's not a very long DVD. Basically he explains the various parts of the top plate that he believes drive and couple other parts of the plate. Then he does some sanding inside the plate through the ffs. A miniscule amount that you would not believe would make a difference. I'm still wondering if I'm hearing what I expect to hear, or if it's real. It certainly seems real. With the first sanding he appeared to get rid of the graunching noise that I heard immediately the player started playing. Very odd for a sceptic of everything like me to half-believe this.

His idea of the coupling of the "tweeter system" as he calls it made me think of Stradivari and his "eyebrows" around the ffs. I wonder if the violins that have this strong effect were in fact being tuned to decouple the tweeter (from the outside) because the assembled violin was sounding shrill or too loud? I've always wondered why many makers fade out the f-wing hollowing around half way up when Strad took it right around. Hey, maybe I've discovered the "Secret Of Stradivari" :-)

[mayofiddler6]

Well having read the book now I'm slightly disappointed but also intrigued enough to try out some of the ideas which have changed since I last read about them some while back.

My basic view of the book is that it is half sycophantic drivel of the "Fry is God, Fry is the closest to the Cremonese sound" variety, and almost half over-romanticised stories about the great makers and dealers (which we have seen before countless times). The bit left over is about 4 pages of useful info on Fry's ideas on graduation and tuning.

In all, it's a good coffee-table book for the uninitiated punter to browse through, with just enough tantalising technical info to make you want to know more if you are a maker.

It's a shame it wasn't written by Fry himself, who seems to be good at explaining his ideas clearly. Despite the fact the author claims in his acknowledgements that he gained "profound insights" (or some such thing) into violin making, it's obvious he didn't. The book would have contained much more useful information and less fluff if he had.

Michael I'd be interested to hear your views if you have read the book yet.

[PeSt]

mayofiddler6 gave a very good description of this book, I too would have preferred that Fry himself had written it. I am intrigued by some of the concepts and I wonder if makers here are actually using them. Particularly two:

First, his scraping of the plates on the finished violin through the f-holes. On page 143 it states: "Among the exhibits in the Stradivari Museum in Cremona, one finds the tools Stradivari used. Among cutting and wood pieces that were intended to be made into violins, there is a scraping device. Fry and I discovered with great excitement the scraping device with an uncanny resemblance to Fry's "scraper". It vindicated his theory that Stradivari did make final adjustment by scraping and changing the graduations through f-holes in a manner like his own method to change the tone of a violin."

Has anyone seen the tool Stradivari used to do this? I never seen a picture of it.

Second, manipulating the sound through stiffen fibres around soundpost: On page 121, "Fry came up with an ingenious solution of using normal Elmer's wood glue. With proper dilution with water (1/2 glue, 1/2 water) to reduce the viscosity and soak into the wood better, he found glue an ideal substitute for varnish. It has the same properties as varnish; it strengthens in the transverse direction and has the added advantage that it dries up and reaches a stable condition in a matter of few hours."

I kind of don't like the idea of having PVA wood glue between the plate and soundpost. Does anyone do this?

After reading on page 39: "Purfling consists of three thin strips glued together with the central black strip made of hardwood (like ebony) and thinner layers of maple (or occasionally willow) on both sides. The whole strip is 1/2 to 1/3 mm thick", I wonder how accurate the other information contained in this book is or how much else is back to front?

Cheers, Peter

[mayofiddler6]

I had exactly the same questions and noted the same mistake. So looks like Peter and myself have identical views of the book.

Michael did you read it yet?

[Craig Tucker]

Haven't read the book but I'll buy it for the DVD.

Does the book automatically ship with the DVD?

The last copy is available on Amazon for $46, while four used copies are available for $ 64 and some odd change each... (?)

The description at Amazon doesn't say anything about a DVD.

At this point, I'm just mildly curious. $50 would buy a nice piece of back wood.

The various hints about "the neophyte sitting at the masters feet" attitude of the author doesn't inspire a great deal of confidence in me either. That, in combination with the very solid fact that every "tuning” scheme I have encountered, thus far, has pretty much been just that (I.e. a scheme), it’s almost as if the adjunct “The Secrets of Stradivari” is a code for “just move along people, there’s nothing to see here…”

[Roger Hill]

After reading on page 39: "Purfling consists of three thin strips glued together with the central black strip made of hardwood (like ebony) and thinner layers of maple (or occasionally willow) on both sides. The whole strip is 1/2 to 1/3 mm thick", I wonder how accurate the other information contained in this book is or how much else is back to front?

Cheers, Peter

I'm sure you've noticed that the period key (ie, the decimal point) and the slash "/" are adjacent on your keyboard. Such a typo doesn't alarm me much. My comment is that Fry has laid out one scheme, typical of only some of Stradivari's graduation schemes, which works for him and which he explains. I have talked to Jack on a number of occasions and he will tell you in unequivocal terms that the old masters tuned their violins by ear. They knew what to listen for and how to improve what they heard. The DVD simply illustrates his point.

[Roger Hill]

Does the book automatically ship with the DVD?

Yes, it is all bound up in a neat little package.

[Craig Tucker]

Yes, it is all bound up in a neat little package.

Ahhh, thank you.

[Ken Pollard]

After reading on page 39: "Purfling consists of three thin strips glued together with the central black strip made of hardwood (like ebony) and thinner layers of maple (or occasionally willow) on both sides. The whole strip is 1/2 to 1/3 mm thick", I wonder how accurate the other information contained in this book is or how much else is back to front?

Cheers, Peter

I'm sure you've noticed that the period key (ie, the decimal point) and the slash "/" are adjacent on your keyboard. Such a typo doesn't alarm me much. My comment is that Fry has laid out one scheme, typical of only some of Stradivari's graduation schemes, which works for him and which he explains. I have talked to Jack on a number of occasions and he will tell you in unequivocal terms that the old masters tuned their violins by ear. They knew what to listen for and how to improve what they heard. The DVD simply illustrates his point.

I dunno. I find the color scheme confusing.

[Roger Hill]

I dunno. I find the color scheme confusing.

it really is

[mayofiddler6]

After reading on page 39: "Purfling consists of three thin strips glued together with the central black strip made of hardwood (like ebony) and thinner layers of maple (or occasionally willow) on both sides. The whole strip is 1/2 to 1/3 mm thick", I wonder how accurate the other information contained in this book is or how much else is back to front?

Cheers, Peter

I'm sure you've noticed that the period key (ie, the decimal point) and the slash "/" are adjacent on your keyboard. Such a typo doesn't alarm me much. My comment is that Fry has laid out one scheme, typical of only some of Stradivari's graduation schemes, which works for him and which he explains. I have talked to Jack on a number of occasions and he will tell you in unequivocal terms that the old masters tuned their violins by ear. They knew what to listen for and how to improve what they heard. The DVD simply illustrates his point.

I don't think anyone is bashing Mr. Fry. It's the book that is a disappointment and in all probability it would have been much better if written by him!

[Roger Hill]

I don't think anyone is bashing Mr. Fry. It's the book that is a disappointment and in all probability it would have been much better if written by him!

I wasn't suggesting that anyone was bashing Fry, only that a typo is simply a typo and not reason to cast doubt about the contents. There is plenty to bash about the book. Firstly, the covers are of terrible material and warped right out of the box. Secondly, the printing of some of the figures is equally awful. The printing and binding were done by a publisher which (I believe) specializes in cheap copies of expensive textbooks. I do find Fry's ideas appealing and plan to test them. Fry himself is about 90 and doesn't use a computer. I think no one can blame him for not wanting to hand write a manuscript. While Wali is certainly devoted to his friend (having been a PhD student of Fry's in 1958) I don't find his praise for the violins that far out of line in a world which seems able to either praise or take Nagavary with a grain of salt. Knowledgable readers will know how to measure the words. Without Wali taking the time to do this, Fry's knowledge would probably have been lost. Wali certainly is not going to get rich for his effort. The ultimate judges of the violins are the students and teachers who have his violins, all of which were made by someone else (thus limiting what Fry could do with them) and at very little cost. Just listening to the DVD was an eye opener for me.

[PeSt]

The last copy is available on Amazon for $46, while four used copies are available for $ 64 and some odd change each... (?)

At this point, I'm just mildly curious. $50 would buy a nice piece of back wood.

I would go for the back because you can buy it for $36 at BookDepository US. And the hardcover issue does come with the DVD. There is also a Paperback version for $ 24, but I don't know if it contains the DVD.

Roger, I enjoyed reading the book and learning about Fry's ideas, but as I am a novice in violin-making without any acoustical knowledge, I only questioned what else could be wrongly represented. The publication does has a "cheap" feel to it as most of the illustrations are copied from the internet. But at least it is affordable.

Cheers, Peter