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David Frederick

Bass Bar Curiosity

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Had this instrument in for a small open center-seam by the saddle and snapped a few photos while the end was open.

Just thought I would share, comment if you must.

Anyone seen this before? Completely cut in two!

David

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Looks like a fairly standard catamaran bass-bar to me. Now if you had one with outriggers, then you'd have something!

I haven't seen such a thing before -- just pulling your leg. Good photos of it, though, and whoever did it, did it on purpose and with some skill. How does it sound?

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What do you think the effect would be on the bass bar of a violin?

Less than optimum.

The bass bar seems to be one of those things that attract people who want to improve the tone of the violin.

As far as I know, every attempt has been about the same.

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Less mass for almost the same amount of stiffness was probably the thinking on this bass bar design. I think that this is not the place to try to save a little weight though. If you think about it a bass bar only weighs ~4 grams. Even if you reduce the mass of the bar by 25% you have only saved a gram. Seems like wasted effort.

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Less mass for almost the same amount of stiffness was probably the thinking on this bass bar design.

Yes, I believe you are probably right about the thinking behind this innovation.

The common assumption that less mass for a given stiffness (stiffness is only one factor) is always best, is likely in error with regard to the bass bar.

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Yes, I believe you are probably right about the thinking behind this innovation.

The common assumption that less mass for a given stiffness (stiffness is only one factor) is always best, is likely in error with regard to the bass bar.

That's also what I believe about mass versus stiffness, for the time being.

But if the maker of that bar thought it was optimized for stiffness/mass, some serious blunders were made! :)

Craig, I think it might be designed as a landing slot for miniature alien space craft.

When we can't explain things, we can always attribute them to alien visitation. :)

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Craig, I think it might be designed as a landing slot for miniature alien space craft.

When we can't explain things, we can always attribute them to alien visitation. :)

Those d*mn aliens only care about one thing..., beer.

Icy cold and fresh.

It's all they ever think about.

It's all they ever ask about.

It's all they ever want from me...

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On a serious note.

For various pragmatic reasons, and despite all the hype occasionally heaped upon some examples, I've never witnessed a bass bar innovation that resulted in reliably improved tone.

Plus, I've experimented with quite a few different bass bar designs.

So, as a result I don't hesitate to guess that the result of such a bar will be "less than optimum".

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What do you think the effect would be on the bass bar of a violin?

In finite element analysis of a violin top or body one can see that the bass bar vibrate quite a lot sideways. With the split, there are in reality two bars that can vibrate sideways individually. Some more degrees of freedom is introduced, an extra bar giving extra vibration modes, and these may be in a different region than for a normal one, probably with the modes shifted to lower frequencies, if the wood is normal.

I would believe that this type of bar would influence the tone of an instrument in some way. Maybe the signature mode frequencies are a bit lower in frequency than normal? If so a somewhat richer sound could be an effect. The modes may also be split, due to close modes of the bar. Two "active dampers" instead of one..

The bar isdes can flap in unison and out of phase. I am not sure if the effect of such a low mass and vibrating energy will affect the body vibrations significantly.

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All of you hot rod enthusiasts should recognize dual tuned bars as being superior to a single bar; much less back pressure! :)

Hmmm, some engine control systems use a 1-bar manifold air pressure sensor, and others use a 2-bar or 3-bar. Looks like this violin was set up for forced induction. :)

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I was surprised to see a slit bass bar in a violin I recently purchased. It is from the 1920's. It has a powerful sound that is warm and sweet, however the tone is also abit unfocused and diffused. This might be a design suitable for the amateur violinist, it is not judgemental.

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Had this instrument in for a small open center-seam by the saddle and snapped a few photos while the end was open.

Just thought I would share, comment if you must.

Anyone seen this before? Completely cut in two!

David

++++++++++

One is sufficient. Two are redundant.

What good are two weak bassbars?

I would be surprised if the sound is any good.

In an old violin which was in the old days of gut strings, short neck era

the no nonsense luthier just reinforced the bassbar to make it adequite for modern strings.

That luthier knew what he was doing in his credit.. For a new violin, you can build whatever way you want why

it needs reinforcement? Two bassbars are not going to enhance the tone.

Every piece of wood in a violin has a reason to be there. If there is no such, you don't need it.

( The violin design is amazingly perfect )

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Were double bars ever an "in " concept in bars? For example, Samual Jansen Miller from Dryden New York and others were into this Suspension Bridge design where the bass bar was longer but only made contact with the top in three areas. (the one that I seen did not sound particularly good).

Could this have been a fix for a weak or sinking top rather than inovation?

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Were double bars ever an "in " concept in bars?

Answering just this part of the question, I don't believe so.

Make that, "it depends on who you talk to."

The only modified bar that was ever considered "in" to any real commercial degree, that I know of, is one specific type of bar that you can still have put in your violin - which, if you read the hype, will change even the most problematic violin into a star.

But, if and when you question the people who buy and sell violins for a living, they will almost universally have a slightly "different" opinion, generally, about such modifications.

Who's right?

Since I don't have the time or the desire to spend my life researching various makers claims, I know who I listen to, and why I listen to them.

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I've been watching for a discussion where I would have an excuse to show this photo. I think this will be as close as it comes. This is the inside of an old New England church bass. Yankee ingenuity? post-1512-1264179250.jpg

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