Best strings for aluminum violin

[cjstuff]

After years of searching (and saving my pennies), I have finally obtained an attic-fresh aluminum violin. Though the label long ago peeled off, it's almost certainly a 1930s Aluminum Musical Instrument Co. fiddle, not a German-made Pfretzschner. From the looks of things, the violin appears to have been last played in the 1950s, then put away in a basement--it's got a definite musty note, though the bow bugs that attacked the bow hair didn't get very far with the instrument itself. :-)

Condition of the instrument is very good--would be excellent if the faux-wood paint weren't starting to freckle a bit. No open seams, either--the welding is of excellent quality. Other than ebony pegs, tailpiece, and fingerboard--and a wooden slat to which the fingerboard is glued/mounted, the entire instrument is aluminum. It's only a bit heavier than a wooden violin, and my initial impression is that it's quite responsive. I had expected something more sluggish, like a student viola.

The vintage 1950s bridge that came with the violin was still good enough (straight, not discolored) that I threw a set of cheap strings on the instrument to hear how it sounds. I'm still in the early stages of experimenting with it, but my initial impressions are: (1) it's loud, with a lot of power; (2) it's got surprisingly good low end response; and (3) it's somehow both muffled and shrill on the higher strings, though this almost certainly due in part to an unfortunate combination of sound post placement (i.e., the original post is wedged in there pretty tightly and I didn't want to mess with it) and Super Sensitive Strings (I told you I put cheap strings on it).

At any rate, I was wondering if anyone out there has set up one of these idiosyncratic instruments, and, if so, what strings they ultimately found worked particularly well with the instrument. I'm sort-of leaning towards Helicore strings, since I think I want a string with fast response, but I figure I'll need to work on smoothing out the upper register somewhat. My initial thought is also that the nuances of premium strings won't necessarily be captured by the aluminum resonating chamber, but that's only a working hypothesis.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[welshman]

Hi,

Thess are interesting artifacts, i set one up for a collector in Erie Pa, he did a bit of research on his. It and a lot of others were made for the founder of Interlocken for use by the students. They have problems with the pegs being mounted in the (what looks lilke rubber) collars in the pegbox holes and in the wood plugs in the neck coming loose. We didn't waste a lot of effort in string selection - just went with dominants. I cant imangine much change in sound quality with other types (after all the bassbar is also aluminum.

I think he is looking for a aluminum bow to go with it.

If you want to PM I can hook you up with the collector in mind and you can exchange experiences.

Reese

[Johnmasters]

Condition of the instrument is very good--would be excellent if the faux-wood paint weren't starting to freckle a bit. No open seams, either--the welding is of excellent quality. Other than ebony pegs, tailpiece, and fingerboard--and a wooden slat to which the fingerboard is glued/mounted, the entire instrument is aluminum. It's only a bit heavier than a wooden violin, and my initial impression is that it's quite responsive. I had expected something more sluggish, like a student viola.

It sounds as if you are more of a player, and perhaps not a maker. Perhaps that is a shame... a maker could use this to see the effects of having a material that is the same in all diretions (isotropic). Spruce is much stiffer along the grain than across.

Much of the unusual sound in higher pitches likely relate to this. It is interesting that the low range is good. The fast response suggests low damping, which is typical of a metal such as aluminum. A glass violin might be even more so. Do you see any kind of coating inside? Is the outside coating rather thick?

Something like this would be a great testbed for certain testings of ideas for the maker. If you ever want to sell it, you might advertise on this forum. There may be some (including me) who could use it as an example of a violin with isotropic materials. The same is true for a carbon-fiber violin which has had no provision for lowering cross-grain stiffness.

[cjstuff]

It sounds as if you are more of a player, and perhaps not a maker.

I am indeed primarily a violinist, though I have learned a great deal about maintenance and simple repairs by following this group and learning from both positive (why can't I do this?) and negative (I should never try this!) examples. However, that plus a whole lot of wishful thinking still won't make me a luthier.

Much of the unusual sound in higher pitches likely relate to this. It is interesting that the low range is good. The fast response suggests low damping, which is typical of a metal such as aluminum. A glass violin might be even more so. Do you see any kind of coating inside? Is the outside coating rather thick?

These violins were finished to blend into an ensemble of wooden instruments as much as possible. Accordingly, they originally shipped with a faux wood finish ("nice two piece back") and the interior appears to have been sprayed with a light coating of "wood-colored" paint, including the aluminum bass bar (the sound post is wooden). As finished, there would be no visible bare aluminum anywhere on the instrument. The exterior paint on this instrument appears to be applied in two coats--a color coat and some type of shiny lacquer finish. I am wondering if this second coat was applied later or whether it was applied at the factory.

As for its utility to a maker, I strongly suspect you'd be better off trying to find a Pfretzschner aluminum violin of the same vintage. Aside from the fact that they are considered to have a better sound, thanks in part to a wooden neck and some wooden blocking inside the instrument, the instruments are also partially screwed together so that they can be taken apart for repair. I believe they also have wooden bass bars, though I'm not entirely certain as to that. An ALCOA violin, on the other hand, is welded completely shut, so while that gives you tremendous purity of material, it's also very difficult to repair if something ever goes wrong. I imagine that the best you can do is take it to an automotive "ding removal" service if something ever happens to the body. Broken necks are also a common problem--they are typically brazed back together.

Brobst Violins in Alexandria, VA has a Pfretzschner aluminum violin that's been sand blasted down to bare aluminum in one of their show cases. It's not set up, and it's on display as a curiosity. When I asked about it, I was told that it is not for sale (too bad!).

[Johnmasters]

the interior appears to have been sprayed with a light coating of "wood-colored" paint, including the aluminum bass bar (the sound post is wooden). As finished, there would be no visible bare aluminum anywhere on the instrument. The exterior paint on this instrument appears to be applied in two coats--a color coat and some type of shiny lacquer finish. I am wondering if this second coat was applied later or whether it was applied at the factory.

As for its utility to a maker, I strongly suspect you'd be better off trying to find a Pfretzschner aluminum violin of the same vintage. Aside from the fact that they are considered to have a better sound, thanks in part to a wooden neck and some wooden blocking inside the instrument, the instruments are also partially screwed together so that they can be taken apart for repair. I believe they also have wooden bass bars, though I'm not entirely certain as to that. An ALCOA violin, on the other hand, is welded completely shut, so while that gives you tremendous purity of material, it's also very difficult to repair if something ever goes wrong. I imagine that the best you can do is take it to an automotive "ding removal" service if something ever happens to the body. Broken necks are also a common problem--they are typically brazed back together.

I have no interest to repair anything, just to know what kind of normal mode spectrum it would have.

I asked about the interior paint to know if the manufacturer was attempting to put some damping into the plates. You know that cars have special coatings on the insides of the doors to give the right "sound" when the door is slammed shut. This gives the buyer a sense of high quality in those cases where it is done especially well.

[Dean_Lapinel]

After years of searching (and saving my pennies), I have finally obtained an attic-fresh aluminum violin. Though the label long ago peeled off, it's almost certainly a 1930s Aluminum Musical Instrument Co. fiddle, not a German-made Pfretzschner. From the looks of things, the violin appears to have been last played in the 1950s, then put away in a basement--it's got a definite musty note, though the bow bugs that attacked the bow hair didn't get very far with the instrument itself. :-)

Would you do us a favor of a photo of this violin?

This got me to thinking about the maestronet poster that made metal violins.

I can't remember his name but I would like to see pics of his work again. I remember they were pretty nice looking instruments.

[Fellow]

]

++++++++++++++++++

Even within wood material, thick top or thin top sound different. What kind of sound are you trying to make ?

Bright sound or dark sound? Metal is a different world all together.

[Johnmasters]

Even within wood material, thick top or thin top sound different. What kind of sound are you trying to make ?

Bright sound or dark sound? Metal is a different world all together.

The idea was more about relating the two, not making any kind of instrument.

[viola_license_revoked]

hmmm...

maybe these folks have some relevant experience:

got any pictures to share please?

[Dean_Lapinel]

maybe these folks have some relevant experience:

Not as heavy a metal but I like this version better. I have many vids of this piece including Pablo Casals but Yo-Yo...wow!

[Dwight Brown]

Hi,

Thess are interesting artifacts, i set one up for a collector in Erie Pa, he did a bit of research on his. It and a lot of others were made for the founder of Interlocken for use by the students.

As an "old boy" from Interlochen I have heard of many of Joe Maddy's experiments. In fact the bridge on my viola right now was cut by His son Richard (now also deceased) I never saw any aluminum violins, but I know there where Aluminum Basses. Somewhere there are pictures of the basses floating out in green lake! It is good to hear something of my beloved school however odd. I never knew Joseph Maddy, but there were many stories about him.

Dwight

IAA'78

[welshman]

Dwight,

I was trying to remember what the collector found out about these instruments, i think i recall something about a lot of them being in an attic when a house burned. I will have to contact him to get it again.

Reese

[Fellow]

The idea was more about relating the two, not making any kind of instrument.

+++++++++++++++

Oh, I see why we want to know? Unless we are unhappy with wooden violins, metal does not work like

wood. I can think of a lot of noise ( if you hit a tin can. )

[TimRobinson]

Would you do us a favor of a photo of this violin?

This got me to thinking about the maestronet poster that made metal violins.

I can't remember his name but I would like to see pics of his work again. I remember they were pretty nice looking instruments.

See: Alex Elliot

Read about him in Violin and Bow Makers of Australia

Regards,

Tim

[Lance]

After years of searching (and saving my pennies), I have finally obtained an attic-fresh aluminum violin... ...it's somehow both muffled and shrill on the higher strings...

... I was wondering if anyone out there has set up one of these idiosyncratic instruments, and, if so, what strings they ultimately found worked particularly well with the instrument...

Thanks in advance for any advice!

I have an aluminum violin with the label, "Made of Alcoa Aluminum No 392 Aluminum Musical Instrument Co, Inc. Ann Arbor, Michigan 1932 Patent applied for." I have always used Dominants on it. Perhaps a darker string would take some of the metallic edge off the sound, but I have not experimented. I do not find the higher strings muffled, so you might be right about the sound post placement being the problem. The biggest problem I found was keeping the thing tuned. The pegs kept slipping because the peg box does not have the "tooth" of wood to hold them. I finally solved the problem by having a set of Knilling Planetary pegs installed. A bit expensive, but they work.

I have some research on the history of these violins. If you would like a copy, email me and I'll be happy to send it to you. (barclay at adelphia.net)

The faux wood finish, which I take to be a lithograph, does make it look like wood, doesn't it? Unlike my Berg bow, which really does fool people even after they play with it, as soon as one picks up the violin, its material is apparent from the weight and cold feel.

[COB3]

"...a maker could use this to see the effects of having a material that is the same in all diretions (isotropic). Spruce is much stiffer along the grain than across."

Cast metal (aluminum, for example) may be isotropic in the true sense, but rolled metals are certainly not. Rolled metals have a grain orientation much like wood, though much more even. The differences between with-the-grain (rolling direction) and cross-grain are significant, and the through-thickness dimension is the weakest.

I doubt there is nearly so much difference as there is in wood, but the differences are significant enough that when temperature-specific notch-toughness tests, tensile tests, bend tests and the like are made, rolling direction is specified, and is considered critical. It makes a difference in joint design, too, as lamellar tearing in the through-thickness dimension can be avoided thorugh proper joint design.

Probably, acoustically, the material is close enough to being isotropic that it may make no difference at all. But from an engineering point of view it really makes a lot of difference.