Wich of the recordings are played on a Strad?

[Anders Buen]

Wich of these recordings is a Strad and wich is a modern violin?

You may either PM me if you do not want to reveal your answer on the list, or just post it here.

I will put together an anonymous statistics of the answers and post when the post go dead.

Please include what medium you listened to the recordings though, headphones or loudspeakers.

[Edit] The sound files are deleted as the quiz has ended. Thanks for participating!

[Marc Genevrier]

Nice idea, Anders, I like it!

Unfortunately, the MN software seems to behave the same as with photos, i.e. I can't load/listen to the whole music, it stops before the end.

In any case, here's my guess - for what it's worth, since I'm certainly not the best here to express an informed opinion -:

1. Modern violin

2. Strad

I heard it through headphones (of pretty common quality, that is, not very good).

Curious to hear what others think...

Marc

[~ Ben Conover]

I heard both samples clearly, via headphones, since they are better than my crap computer speakers.

My gut reaction after 5 secs listening time :

The playing is not so good, & that makes it very hard to evaluate the sound.

They say a great player can make any good violin sound great, and a bad player can make any great violin sound not so good.....

I think you could hear the difference between a Strad and a modern instrument better if the playing and recording was better. I mean that in a nice way.

There is such a thing as a not so good sounding Strad, you know.

Also, what constitutes 'modern ? There are loads of great sounding 'modern' Italian violins out there, everything from Cappicciano to Guastalla to Scarampella, etc.

If you mean a 'new' instrument, who made it ?

[Anders Buen]

Wich of these recordings is a Strad and wich is a modern violin?

You may either PM me if you do not want to reveal your answer on the list, or just post it here.

I will put together an anonymous statistics of the answers and post when the post go dead.

Please include what medium you listened to the recordings though, headphones or loudspeakers.

The sound files are shared on this site: http://www.esnips.com/web/an-buensStuff

Hope the files are easier to listen to in a whole here. They will be deleted when the test is over.

[1alpha]

Wich of these recordings is a Strad and wich is a modern violin?

You may either PM me if you do not want to reveal your answer on the list, or just post it here.

I will put together an anonymous statistics of the answers and post when the post go dead.

Please include what medium you listened to the recordings though, headphones or loudspeakers.

Good game but ultimately pointless. Unfortunately the performances were not the same and the recording was not the highest quality.

Go to a concert hall and record with some pro equipment with a pro engineer and a pro violinist. That would give a better idea but it would still be only an idea.

The point is if most had the choice between playing on a Strad or a modern instrument they would go for the Strad even if the modern violin sounded better. That's human nature.

QED

BTW if you're not using the Strad may I borrow it for my recording?

[Anders Buen]

Good game but ultimately pointless. Unfortunately the performances were not the same and the recording was not the highest quality.

Go to a concert hall and record with some pro equipment with a pro engineer and a pro violinist. That would give a better idea but it would still be only an idea.

The point is if most had the choice between playing on a Strad or a modern instrument they would go for the Strad even if the modern violin sounded better. That's human nature.

QED

BTW if you're not using the Strad may I borrow it for my recording?

Now the recording is from a concert hall, but the file is compressed for being easier to handle.

Now lets take this as it is, a game, please. :-)

Thank you!

[~ Ben Conover]

My guess, and where x is usually the unknown in science....

x = ?

y = Strad

I have now listened to both recordings for 30 minutes.

The bits with 3rds & 6ths make it easier to hear some differences.

The second recording seems to have a richer sound.

I'd agree with Roland above in that the recording quality is not great.

Also to make it more fun perhaps you should have more than two recordings, maybe 10 recordings with 10 different instruments, all played by the same player.

A Bach Partita might be a better test for hearing sounds.

Otherwise it's just too easy to guess X or Y

[1alpha]

Now the recording is from a concert hall, but the file is compressed for being easier to handle.

Now lets take this as it is, a game, please. :-)

Thank you!

For a concert hall recording it sounds poor. Sounds like one stereo mic fairly close, when two stereo pairs are standard. That is a close pair around 15 feet away and an ambient pair some distance away.

Far better to have recorded a 3 octave scale of G maj with long bows and a full tone, forte up, piano down. Then play 2 oct g scale in 6ths.

Would have been better than a scrappy Bruch.

Or you could just post the first line of the Bruch as uncompressed. Might give a better idea.

The other issue is that on the second recording the bow scrunched in the string in a couple of places and may bias the listener to thinking the modern instrument couldn't take the bow pressure when in fact there are several permutations. ie the player hadn't the finess of bow technique to get the best tone from the Strad.

On the James Ennes recording I think the Pietro of Mantua Guarneri sounds the best closely followed by the Baron Knoop Strad. But they all sound pretty much the same and all fantsatic. If only he'd added your modern violin to the collection. That would have been interesting.

[~ Ben Conover]

Maybe the player was using a Dudd bow....

[1alpha]

Maybe the player was using a Dudd bow....

.......and had had a few too many.

Or maybe; the 'Strad' is made in China and the new violin by Zygmuntovich.

[Anders Buen]

For a concert hall recording it sounds poor. Sounds like one stereo mic fairly close, when two stereo pairs are standard. That is a close pair around 15 feet away and an ambient pair some distance away.

Far better to have recorded a 3 octave scale of G maj with long bows and a full tone, forte up, piano down. Then play 2 oct g scale in 6ths.

Would have been better than a scrappy Bruch.

Or you could just post the first line of the Bruch as uncompressed. Might give a better idea.

The other issue is that on the second recording the bow scrunched in the string in a couple of places and may bias the listener to thinking the modern instrument couldn't take the bow pressure when in fact there are several permutations. ie the player hadn't the finess of bow technique to get the best tone from the Strad.

On the James Ennes recording I think the Pietro of Mantua Guarneri sounds the best closely followed by the Baron Knoop Strad. But they all sound pretty much the same and all fantsatic. If only he'd added your modern violin to the collection. That would have been interesting.

The recordings is from an experiment, not a commercial recording.

I agree on your last comment. That would have been interesting.

The game rules is set, there will not be any first part of Bruch uncompressed because some has already answered. That may be for an other test.

Thanks for your suggestions.

[David Burgess]

Fun thread, Anders, and very educational.

The instrument choices are well done too, because while it's easy to hear a difference, it's difficult to pick one as being clearly superior.

It seems like most such comparisons start generating comments about "problems with the test" pretty quickly.

[Matthias Lange]

I'd prefer the first of those two violins.

So I'd say that violin x is the Strad (although that better-> Strad presumption may be wrong).

The violin y has a somewhat hollow sound (Maybe too strong corpus resonances around 500 Hz?), that I don't find very appealing.

On the other hand it also has its stregths as for example a more colourful vibrato.

I listened to the recordings on relatively cheap computer loudspeakers.

Matthias

[~ Ben Conover]

Yes it's fun, but if it's educational then I'm missing the punchline.

This test just shows me how two violins can be made to sound mediocre despite best intentions.

That's not being harsh, just my feeling.

This is very good but the piano may not have been great....

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=w...ULNAQ6KH35ZWjGA

Here she was playing a Bosendorfer..... Live @ Montreux :

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=w...Lpi-bdWQH9rxo9w

(I grew up under a piano so I'm biased).

[erocca]

I'd certainly prefer the 1st, at least in this recording. To my ears the violin has a clearer sound, better response and more "ring".

#2 seems to have a slower response and slight "muddiness" to the sound, a slight hoarseness, maybe an adjustment issue?

How things sound under a mike, and how they sound in a hall can sometimes be quite different also.

[1alpha]

Yes it's fun, but if it's educational then I'm missing the punchline.

This test just shows me how two violins can be made to sound mediocre despite best intentions.

That's not being harsh, just my feeling.

Quite true.

Take me to Silverstone and put me in a Ford Focus, I'd be OK.

Put me in a Formula 1 McLaren and I'd probably crash it.

[IBK]

On listening I can not determine which is a new violin and which is the Strad. They both sound very good indeed. The problem I have with this type of example is the compression of mp3, the room acoustics, and the microphone used. All three tend to give an inaccurate representation of the actual sound of the violin. Microphones do color the sound quite a bit. Probably the best way to do this test is to use a variety of microphones (high quality certainly) and record individual takes in an anechoic chamber at a distance of about 12" to produce the proximity effect. Compare the results with the live violins and determine which is the most accurate replication.

[~ Ben Conover]

Your car (automatic) will perform just as well at a normal level, with an automatic gear box as with a stick shift, just depends on your preference and skill, like blades vs. cavities.

Your violin will play as well as you play it, but if you have a good Strad then you'll get more out of it.

Anyway, how many Strads are really in top playing condition ?

[David Burgess]

Yes it's fun, but if it's educational then I'm missing the punchline.

This test just shows me how two violins can be made to sound mediocre despite best intentions.

I doubt that anything was done intentionally to make the violins sound mediocre.

I've done quite a bit of comparison recording, with a group of listeners, to help evaluate sound adjustments. As long as the recording and playback conditions and equipment were the same for the instruments being compared (even if the playback equipment wasn't great), impressions from the recordings tracked very well with live listener impressions.

One of the reasons I think it can be educational is that some people will at least have a momentary flash of the "unthinkable", before snapping back to their "comfort zone".

[Magnus Nedregard]

Cool idea, Anders I would expect X to be the Strad simply because it sounds like it is well set up. Y has something wrong in the G-string response that should be looked into. It might still be a well set-up new fiddle and a Strad with a dislocated bridge or soundpost, but I would not expect that

[~ Ben Conover]

Good point.

The response time is also important, too much listening is bad for your ears and can alter your perception when jusdging critically.

On the other hand, for selling violins it's good to have coffee, cakes, and live dancers ready to entertain whilst the instrument is played.

[Ken_N]

I just used cheap ear buds from my MP3 player. Even with that I could hear differences. I thought the initial attack on the second one was much better than the first. I almost couldn't believe the start of the first. That one seemed like it didn't want to play at the start of both phrases. So my thoughts are the opposite of the other posters on that issue. When the second got to the part with two notes playing there was no comparison. Much better than the other, seemed to have more oomph in the high range. Better harmonics. As for the hollow sound in the beginning, I kind of like it.

[Don Noon]

There seems to be a common evaluation that X is cleaner and Y is a bit hollow-sounding, with both sounding good once you get on the higher notes. That was my impression, first on my computer speakers and then confirmed with high-quality headphones.

I will guess that Y (hollow-sounding) is the Strad, but it certainly could go either way. In general, it seems that modern violins are made thicker than Strads, so they might be less likely to sound hollow. A mediocre Strad, good modern, although it could be the other way around. I have heard a Very Bad Strad that sounded worse than 99% of any random instrument, so it depends on the particular instruments you pick... among a bunch of other things.

edit - on listening to them again, there did seem to be a little more sparkle on the high notes of Y, which goes along with my impression of it being the Strad. I still don't like the hollowness of the mid and low notes, however.

[gabi]

Wich of these recordings is a Strad and wich is a modern violin?

You may either PM me if you do not want to reveal your answer on the list, or just post it here.

I will put together an anonymous statistics of the answers and post when the post go dead.

Please include what medium you listened to the recordings though, headphones or loudspeakers.

1 st Strad

2nd modern

15 $ big lots computer speakers

[Melvin Goldsmith]

Laptop computer speakers.

X is modern

Y is Strad