Strad (?) identification

[Omobono]

No not a quiz, as such.....

The instrument illustrated below appears on several international websites

describing itself as a Strad....

Problem is it is never identified beyong that description and while it's

a definite Strad model I can't match it with any Strad photo I have seen.

Anyone recognize it? Is it a Vuillaume copy?

Forgive my ignorance if the answer is obvious.

Omo.

[Roderick Quiros]

the outline seems stradish, but f-holes have a guad look to them, particularly the upper half. the maple on the back doesn't look like maple strad typically used. the scroll looks like a strad copy, perhaps a bit over antiqued. also, it's hard to make anything out regarding the varnish colr and texture. the exposure is quite yellow, and maybe a bit overexposed. maybe it's a modern (chinese?) copy? but, what do i know.

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

It looks like a new instrument by a modern maker to me.

[Nicolas Temino]

I am not an expert by far, but those f holes don't look very "strad".

[Melvin Goldsmith]

It looks like a new instrument by a modern maker to me.

......................

Me too. Only someone who has been to modern violin making school would do a button like that.....not to say that it's a bad violin, not at all...not a Strad tho.

Omobono,

What websites does this violin feature on?

[stradofear]

You mean a button like this?

or this:

or this:

or this:

[Melvin Goldsmith]

Your examples are proportionately narrower in relation to the neck and looks more 'right' to me.....some of Strads and other Cremonese buttons do get thinned down over time with fitting new necks but with some original necks like the 'Lady Blunt' and Medicea Tenor Viola and Messie the button is not so wide....thanks for the great pics....as I said the instrument in question is not bad at all..just not a Strad.

[stradofear]

That's a good point. I wonder what a really untouched one would look like. The only one above is the pochette.

[jmannsback]

The image Omobono posted may have come from here: http://www.jerkasmarknad.com/stradivarius.html

[Melvin Goldsmith]

That's a good point. I wonder what a really untouched one would look like. The only one above is the pochette.

......

Yeh, Pochettes!...prompted by Bruce's Chardon pics I was just having a conversation yesterday with MN member Neil Ertz about how pochettes with their relatively fresh state compared to the harder used violins, violas and celli may be one of our best and least utilized resources of information.

[stradofear]

I'm not ready to say that it isn't a real Strad from around 1689 or so. The f-holes are right for that period, as is the head, and looking through Doring just now, I'm finding a batch of similarly wide big buttons. The c-bouts are a tad square for that date, but not impossible.

[Omobono]

The image Omobono posted may have come from here: http://www.jerkasmarknad.com/stradivarius.html

Yes, and elsewhere: I emailed the administrator of that site and he referred me to this one:

http://www.noticiasholanda.com/archives/489

I also appears here:

http://www.meteogiornale.it/news/read.php?id=20133

which actually gives the first site again as the authority but names it as a Strad.

And I'm sure I have seen it elsewhere.

A case of cyber cloning?

I actually have no problem with the selection of maple on the back (as one poster has mentioned)

as being untypical of Stradivari - I could find numerous close matches.

[Melvin Goldsmith]

I actually have no problem with the selection of maple on the back (as one poster has mentioned)

as being untypical of Stradivari - I could find numerous close matches.

.....................

With similar 4-6 mm annual growth?

[Omobono]

Melvin's point about the growth rings taken.....

(your eyes or calipers are better than mine!)

The fiddle's back is reminiscent of quite a few Strads

at least with regard to the width and pattern of the flame:

The Lord Newlands (1702); The Lyall (1702); the Emiliani (1723)

[Magnus Nedregard]

Don't know... Is it possible to tell at all from a low-resolution photo? Too me there's something about the edgework that doesn't quite go with the f-holes: The f's if anything look like something pre-1700, whereas the purfling... a tad distant from the edge for the period, rather a 1715-ish distance that one? Side view of the scroll it looks a little bit big. The inflection where the lower bout goes into the corner has sort of a smaller radius then you would expect in most cases. There's something about the look of the maple too.. or the contrast between ground an varnish perhaps, that looks a little modern.

Also the (possible) integrity of the button is suspicious given the wear of the rest of the fiddle, but then again someone might have grafted a new button in there!

So I guess we won't know until someone recognizes the specific fiddle?

Melvin what do you consider typical yearly growth of the maple employed by Strad?

[Omobono]

Here are a few Vuillaume for comparison..........

treatment of f-hole and button?

[Magnus Nedregard]

Looking at your Vuillaume collection there, it is interesting to notice some of that same ground/varnish contrast that is so evident on the fiddle in question. Often wood colour is too white and pure, varnish is too orange in hue. The contrast between ground/wood and varnish is often a little exaggerated on copies, and sometimes more subtle than you'd expect on originals?

[Omobono]

Here is another site using the same photo:

http://lapaginaescondida.blogspot.com/2009...ius-violin.html

Guess it says more about the internet that about violins.

[jmannsback]

This link might provide more insight. Click on "Instrument Gallery", scroll down to "A 1711 Antonio Stradivari".

http://www.ksviolins.com/Frameset.html

[Omobono]

This link might provide more insight. Click on "Instrument Gallery", scroll down to "A 1711 Antonio Stradivari".

http://www.ksviolins.com/Frameset.html

Not a bad try; I think we're on the right track but not quite there.

[andrew weinstein]

Looks brand new to me, maybe it looks different in person. Seems like too much scroll wear for the rest of

the violin

[Richf]

I wonder if the Chinese fittings provide a clue?

[stradglider]

I wonder if the Chinese fittings provide a clue?

Well.. as much as it is possible to say from this small photo, I would guess that it is Otto Tempel's fittings. Rather expensive ones actually.

[JohnCockburn]

The fittings aren't Tempel.

I'm quite depressed that I'm geeky enough to know that.

[David Burgess]

Looks brand new to me, maybe it looks different in person.

Both Andrew and Magnus make good points. Pictures don't provide nearly as much information as an object in hand.

From the photos, I'll also venture that it's not an original. We're lacking a lot of important detail though, like parts which might have been altered or replaced, which could be easily noticed "in person".