When is string length considered too long?

[polkat]

This is yet another violin that has a string length of around 329mm. The bridge is centered on the notches, but I seem to get a lot of slightly flat notes when I play it. I could move the bridge, but then the post position might become a problem, and I like to set things right when they are wrong anyway. I'm assuming that the correct fix for this is to reset the fingerboard/nut, but do you all consider 329 too long?

[Bruce Carlson]

This is yet another violin that has a string length of around 329mm. The bridge is centered on the notches, but I seem to get a lot of slightly flat notes when I play it. I could move the bridge, but then the post position might become a problem, and I like to set things right when they are wrong anyway. I'm assuming that the correct fix for this is to reset the fingerboard/nut, but do you all consider 329 too long?

329 isn't necessarily too long. The string length of the Cannon is 330 mm. Some musicians can't adjust to these minor differences if their habitual instrument is not set up in the same way. Is this an instrument that you have made or is it a repair?

Bruce

[Magnus Nedregard]

String lengths vary, the tuning of the notes you play depend on you rather than the violin I'd say "too long" is when you have tonal issues becasue of string length, or when the intervals are too long for most players, (or the present owner considers the intervals too large). Is the neck stop more than 130 mm?

[JohnCockburn]

Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I would say 329mm was a perfectly acceptable string length.

[David Burgess]

There are a number of reference points which musicians use for orientation. Key among these are the shape and placement of the underside of the neck, as it turns into the pegbox (first position thumb area), and its orientation relative to the upper nut;

shape and placement of the opposite end of the neck as it turns to become the "heel";

shape and position (relative to other things) of the treble side shoulder.

String length is just one of many variables which can affect how "familiar" an instrument feels to a musician, and it's possible to fudge some other areas sometimes to make an unusual string length feel OK.

Is 329 the actual vibrating string length, or is it the measurement from the upper nut to the center of the bridge foot?

It's really hard to advise without seeing the instrument, so all factors can be taken into account. If you move the fingerboard and nut to get a conventional length, you might even end up with the instrument feeling worse.

[JohnCockburn]

Maybe I'm going bonkers, but isn't the "standard" violin string length 328mm? A 0.3% variation from this is regarded as possibly unacceptable?

[Bruce Carlson]

There are a number of reference points which musicians use for orientation. Key among these are the shape and placement of the underside of the neck, as it turns into the pegbox (first position thumb area), and its orientation relative to the upper nut;

shape and placement of the opposite end of the neck as it turns to become the "heel";

shape and position (relative to other things) of the treble side shoulder.

String length is just one of many variables which can affect how "familiar" an instrument feels to a musician, and it's possible to fudge some other areas sometimes to make an unusual string length feel OK.

Is 329 the actual vibrating string length, or is it the measurement from the upper nut to the center of the bridge foot?

It's really hard to advise without seeing the instrument, so all factors can be taken into account. If you move the fingerboard and nut to get a conventional length, you might even end up with the instrument feeling worse.

David is right about looking at all aspects of the set up. It is the whole picture that is needed here.

Bruce

[Fellow]

David is right about looking at all aspects of the set up. It is the whole picture that is needed here.

Bruce

++++++++++++++

One can play a 7/8 or 3/4 violin in a min then later change to play 4/4. Why the string length will give

a player problem? It is matter that which violin is more comfortable for that person to play.

Usually we put out our left arm to hold the scroll of the violin (with shoulder supporting it) to check.

[Craig Tucker]

This is yet another violin that has a string length of around 329mm. The bridge is centered on the notches, but I seem to get a lot of slightly flat notes when I play it. I could move the bridge, but then the post position might become a problem, and I like to set things right when they are wrong anyway. I'm assuming that the correct fix for this is to reset the fingerboard/nut, but do you all consider 329 too long?

Yes, If I'm not mistaken, there is an inescapable physics about this type of problem.

In other words, if the string length is long, but the strings are equally tuned in fifths, the note spacing increases in order for a scale (or song) to be in tune, but it increases equally across the strings, so, you have to adjust your fingering, but the fact is that, for this violin, you must be playing it flat in order to get flat notes.

Right? That is how it works, right?

Violins with a slight increase or decrease in string length can suit players with big hands or fingers - or with tiny hand or fingers. Or even, if you get used to a specific string length, any other string length can feel "off". Learning to compensate can become automatic with a bit of practice. Try switching to a viola for a while or a half size violin.

In fact, I've noticed that many fiddlers around these parts have giant hands with giant fingers and they consider a slight increase in string length (or even a thick or wide fingerboard, with strings spaced a bit further apart) a blessing. How some of them manage to play in tune, with fingers the size of summer sausages, I don't know - but they do. Many of them are farmers or ranchers or refinery workers (etc.) during the day.

Then again, 329 is a tad long - string it up as a small viola? (<joke)

[gowan]

My violin has a 328mm string length and my viola has a 382mm string length. I have large hands and have little difficulty switching from one instrument to the other in, say, a chamber music session. I think string length is something you learn to get used to. By the way, I think Gil Shaham, who plays a long-pattern Strad, the Countess Polignac, has said that it took him a little while to get used to the longer string length but after that period of adjustment it was no problem.

[MANFIO]

I've seen many professional viola players adapting themselves in seconds to a different string length. But violinists are more particular about that, in general.

[JohnCockburn]

Then again, 329 is a tad long - string it up as a small viola? (<joke)

Is it? Ideally, what should it be?

[skiingfiddler]

If one is worried about a mm of difference in string length from one fiddle to the next (and I, as a player, would worry about it), the question is, where are you measuring from and to? I assume everybody agrees we are measuring from the very point that the string leaves the nut, but what part of the top of the bridge are we measuring to? A rather standard bridge would have a thickness of about 1.2 or 1.3 mm at the very top. If we measure to the very back of the bridge, that's an extra mm+ compared to the front. The middle of the bridge is still an extra 0.6mm compared to the front.

I assume we're measuring to the front of the bridge at the top of the bridge and along the G string.

I don't like string lengths longer than 328 because I have fairly small hands. I had a Carl Becker and Son 1956 fiddle with a short vibrating string length, about 326. A European shop technician (with no knowledge of the Beckers) pushed the bridge back to the standard body stop length and increased string length by 2 mm. That definitely made a difference in my intonation and it took me some days and careful listening to adjust.

I don't think being bothered by a 1 or 2 mm difference is necessarily typical of all players. Some might adjust unconsciously. Some would immediately consciously note the difference and make the adjustment without further consideration, and some might be annoyed at having to make an adjustment.

By the way, the shape of the neck in cross section can influence whether the string length feels long or short, whether you feel you have to reach for your notes or not. (I guess that's been mentioned above.)

[Darren Molnar]

There will not be a standard string length unless the violin arch, height of the bridge and neck set angle were all exactly the same from one violin to another.

Imagine a right triangle with the long base being established by the standard 130+195. Taken in plane with the bottom of the top plate, to the bottom of the nut string groove.That's 325. Then at the right angle end, the height of the triangle is determined by arch height plus bridge height. The last line of the triangle is the string length.

does this sound right?

[JohnCockburn]

There will not be a standard string length unless the violin arch, height of the bridge and neck set angle were all exactly the same from one violin to another.

Imagine a right triangle with the long base being established by the standard 130+195. Taken in plane with the bottom of the top plate, to the bottom of the nut string groove.That's 325. Then at the right angle end, the height of the triangle is determined by arch height plus bridge height. The last line of the triangle is the string length.

does this sound right?

I've always assumed that the "standard" measurements are the neck and body stops (130mm and 195mm) respectively and the string length is then whatever it turns out to be. Which can easily be 329mm.

[Bruce Carlson]

++++++++++++++

One can play a 7/8 or 3/4 violin in a min then later change to play 4/4. Why the string length will give

a player problem? It is matter that which violin is more comfortable for that person to play.

Usually we put out our left arm to hold the scroll of the violin (with shoulder supporting it) to check.

Of course children play on small violins, and some adults as well, but I don't understand what that has to do with the question.

There is a cellist who comes through our shop who for fun plays the Mendelssohn violin concerto on a violin held between his knees. No problem!

I think what I am trying to say is that a good violinist can feel very slight differences from one instrument to another. It is also true that they can adjust to different string lengths. Some don't mind adjusting, others don't like to adjust.

Vadim Repin when he played the Cannone in Genoa immediately noted that the string length was longer than his Guarneri by 2 mm. He practiced for about 45 minutes, then he rehearsed with his pianist for about the same amount of time just before the concert. Then, he played the concert. No problem. He said it was nice having the "extra room" between notes in the upper positions.

In Cremona, in the main church (Duomo) that was packed full of people, Salvatore Accardo played the Four Seasons by Vivaldi and with each season he changed instrument. He played on instruments from the Cremona collection; a Guarneri 'del Gesù', an Andrea Amati, a Niccolò Amati and a Stradivari. All set up differently and with different string lengths. No problem.

Some have difficulty adapting to a different setup or string length whereas for others it is like breathing, you don't have to think about it.

Bruce

[Craig Tucker]

Then again, 329 is a tad long - string it up as a small viola? (<joke)

Is it? Ideally, what should it be?

Sorry, as was clearly stated, I really was making a joke.

According to Strobel, 330mm is a standard 4/4 violin string length - according to this measurement in "Useful Measurements for Violin Makers", 329mm would actually be short by a mm...

His Standard Violin Diagram, on p22 of the 1992 edition, shows 328 - 330mm as standard, so 329 would be correct according to his diagram.

I don't believe Sacconi mentions a "standard" string length for all violins, please correct my foggy brain if I'm mistaken on this point, it's been a while since I read the book through, but he gives a table of table (belly) measurements for Strad violins - the measurements indicating the inside dimensions of the sound box of the violin, or the inside volume - deduced by measuring the mold, including the head and tail blocks, but excluding ribs, and not taking into account the belly curvature, of from 331mm (on the Q mold) to 354mm (on the G mold) - a span difference of 23mm...

So, if you include the overhang - add the length of a "standard" neck (there is one right?), you can calculate the mensure - and etc.

(or, has the word mensure gone back out of fashion?)

If I understand his explanation right, these tables would also imply slightly different string lengths for different models.

Using the chin of the peg box and the heel of the neck as reference points, occurs as the player finds and learns the correct pitch. Not the other way around. These points become familiar by virtue of repetition during the act of playing the violin, and are exactly dependant on the string length for that particular violins construction.

I believe that every violin varies slightly in this regard.

Comments?

[JohnCockburn]

Sorry, as was clearly stated, I really was making a joke.

Sorry, Craig. I thought the joke was just the viola bit.

[Craig Tucker]

There will not be a standard string length unless the violin arch, height of the bridge and neck set angle were all exactly the same from one violin to another.

Imagine a right triangle with the long base being established by the standard 130+195. Taken in plane with the bottom of the top plate, to the bottom of the nut string groove.That's 325. Then at the right angle end, the height of the triangle is determined by arch height plus bridge height. The last line of the triangle is the string length.

does this sound right?

Absolutely.

Don't forget about the ff hole/inner nick placement...

Which isn't written in stone either.

[Craig Tucker]

Sorry, Craig. I thought the joke was just the viola bit.

It was.

!

Nothing wrong with viola players, some of my best friends have a viola...

I won't be seen in public with them, but they do have certain rights under the Constitution.

[Craig Tucker]

It was.

!

Nothing wrong with viola players, some of my best friends have a viola...

I won't be seen in public with them, but they do have certain rights under the Constitution.

Sorry, I might be thinking about the Bill of Rights.

[Bruce Carlson]

Sorry, as was clearly stated, I really was making a joke.

According to Strobel, 330mm is a standard 4/4 violin string length - according to this measurement in "Useful Measurements for Violin Makers", 329mm would actually be short by a mm...

His Standard Violin Diagram, on p22 of the 1992 edition, shows 328 - 330mm as standard, so 329 would be correct according to his diagram.

I don't believe Sacconi mentions a "standard" string length for all violins, please correct my foggy brain if I'm mistaken on this point, it's been a while since I read the book through, but he gives a table of table (belly) measurements for Strad violins - the measurements indicating the inside dimensions of the sound box of the violin, or the inside volume - deduced by measuring the mold, including the head and tail blocks, but excluding ribs, and not taking into account the belly curvature, of from 331mm (on the Q mold) to 354mm (on the G mold) - a span difference of 23mm...

So, if you include the overhang - add the length of a "standard" neck (there is one right?), you can calculate the mensure - and etc.

(or, has the word mensure gone back out of fashion?)

If I understand his explanation right, these tables would also imply slightly different string lengths for different models.

Using the chin of the peg box and the heel of the neck as reference points, occurs as the player finds and learns the correct pitch. Not the other way around. These points become familiar by virtue of repetition during the act of playing the violin, and are exactly dependant on string length for that violins construction.

I believe that every violin varies slightly in this regard.

Comments?

The preoccupation with standardization is a relatively modern idea that, in my opinion, did not exist at the time of Stradivari. The large number instruments with all sorts of dimensions from this period testify to this. Also it is not known to us if some of the smaller instruments may have had different uses or different tunings. It also shows an experimental and inquisitive mind on the part of Stradivari and other makers in their quest for the ideal instrument. I have seen violins by Joseph 'filius Andreae' with a body stop of 200 mm. and Guarneri 'del Gesù' with as little as 191 mm. Often when a bridge and soundpost are repositioned to "standardize" the bridge position the instrument may change acoustically and often for the worse.

Unless the string length creates a real problem for the player I usually tell them to "Shut up and play!"

Bruce

[Craig Tucker]

The preoccupation with standardization is a relatively modern idea that, in my opinion, did not exist at the time of Stradivari. The large number instruments with all sorts of dimensions from this period testify to this. Also it is not known to us if some of the smaller instruments may have had different uses or different tunings. It also shows an experimental and inquisitive mind on the part of Stradivari and other makers in their quest for the ideal instrument. I have seen violins by Joseph 'filius Andreae' with a body stop of 200 mm. and Guarneri 'del Gesù' with as little as 191 mm. Often when a bridge and soundpost are repositioned to "standardize" the bridge position the instrument may change acoustically and often for the worse.

Unless the string length creates a real problem for the player I usually tell them to "Shut up and play!"

Bruce

Yes. No doubt about it.

The adjustment period is minimal, if they are simply made to play for a short time.

By virtue of having things "right" for that particular violin, the improvement in playing quality often makes up for any fingering adjustments necessary.

[David Burgess]

Using the chin of the peg box and the heel of the neck as reference points, occurs as the player finds and learns the correct pitch. Not the other way around. These points become familiar by virtue of repetition during the act of playing the violin, and are exactly dependant on the string length for that particular violins construction.

I believe that every violin varies slightly in this regard.

Comments?

These reference points can be quite different without the string length changing. There is sort of standard set of shapes and dimensions which most major shops use when altering necks, doing neck grafts, and making new instruments. It satisfies the majority of players, and makes it easier for them to switch between one instrument and another. Deviating from these a little isn't a big deal, unless it is to the player. Violists are more accustomed to picking up instruments of different dimensions, adjusting quickly, and making it work. Violinists are less so. Satisfy the picky ones, and usually everyone else will be fine too.

It's a little like making a bridge with a non-standard curvature, or string heights. Some musicians won't notice. Others will do fine once they have a chance to get used to it. A few might consider it intolerable, and need it fixed immediatley. Oh, and there are those for whom it will be "perfect".

[Craig Tucker]

These reference points can be quite different without the string length changing. There is sort of standard set of shapes and dimensions which most major shops use when altering necks, doing neck grafts, and making new instruments. It satisfies the majority of players, and makes it easier for them to switch between one instrument and another. Deviating from these a little isn't a big deal, unless it is to the player. Violists are more accustomed to picking up instruments of different dimensions, adjusting quickly, and making it work. Violinists are less so. Satisfy the picky ones, and usually everyone else will be fine too.

It's a little like making a bridge with a non-standard curvature, or string heights. Some musicians won't notice. Others will do fine once they have a chance to get used to it. A few might consider it intolerable, and need it fixed immediatley. Oh, and there are those for whom it will be "perfect".

Yes.

Some violins are, unfortunately, way off regarding this point.

I know, because some of them are mine!

Not recent work, of course - but from many years ago...