The Ole Bull del Gesu Project

[Atomino]

Hi Bruce.

Being the instrument inspired to and not an exact copy, are the Vuillaume corner blocks, ribs and plate thicknesses close reflecting the original ones by Guarneri?

Thank you for sharing pictures and knowledge.

[Bruce Carlson]

Hi Bruce.

Being the instrument inspired to and not an exact copy, are the Vuillaume corner blocks, ribs and plate thicknesses close reflecting the original ones by Guarneri?

Thank you for sharing pictures and knowledge.

I haven't looked but I doubt if it is as thick as the Ole Bull. When I picked it up I remember it being unusually light.

Bruce

[Bruce Carlson]

Ok thanks for the clarification. But who was Felicié he wrote to, his daughter?

Edited: http://www.kunstmuseene.no/Default.asp?enh...at=244&sp=2

Félicie was only 14 years old when they met and they weren't married until she was 18 (1836). The second wife Sarah was 20 when married (1870). Ole Bull was born in 1810 and died in 1880.

Bruce

[Ken_N]

Vuillaume even flipped the flames on the back the other way. The wood I have has no flames, but I angled it out to get a V look. I've glued the blocks on my form. I don't know how tall the ribs on the original are, but mine will have to be 31mm and 30mm at the neck.

I read that the pin hole on the back is lower than normal for del Gesu, but a comparison of del Gesu thicknesses I printed out from Martin Schleske's site shows almost all of the thickest areas of the backs as somewhere just above or just below the area of the stop, not the center. Is this where it is on the Ole Bull? I scaled the arch heights as 15mm or so for the front and back. Is that in the ball park?

[Anders Buen]

Some more played open-g data based on the Miracle Makers recordings with Oliveira playing the same excerpt on 15 del Gesus and 15 Strads in the same recording environment and settings.

1. A plot comparing the average open g string spectrum on the 15 Strads and 15 del Gesus

2. A plot comparing the spectrum from the Ole Bull del Gesu with the average of all 15 del Gesus

3. A comparison of the spectra from the Ole Bull, Stern Panette and a del Gesu many of you have hammer tap data from now, The Plowden del Gesu (Strad3D)

4. The open g signal for the Ole Bull in wav format.

1. We see that the A0 lie higher in frequency in the del Gesus and that the response below in frequency is about 5dB larger for the Strads down to the fundamental where the difference is about 3dB or so. Above the Strads A0 in frequency, the del Gesus are some 3-5dB stronger in average. There may be traces of a ringing D there in a few instruments, see e.g. fig 3.

The Strads have stronger harmonics in the higher frequency region, especially above 2kHz.

2. The Ole Bull does indeed seem to have a stronger second harmonic than most del gesus. The fundamental, and harmonics up to about 1kHz is also stronger by a few dB. For the higher frequencies I think there is an artifact of the instruments being tuned slightly different, so the average spectrum is weaker than normal due to small tuning differences.

3. Here you see the Ole Bull with some other great instruments. The 1kHz harmonic is also strong in the Ole Bull in comparison to most del Gesus. Same seems true for the 7th, 8th, 10th and 11th harmonics.

audio_20_g.wav

[Ray Lee]

KenN , The thickest part of the back are like most del gesu , was almost on the narrowest part of the c-bout. And the back thickness distributing was similar to the Cannone , the thickest point was 6.5mm , and 6mm just above and below that point . The top are thinner than Cannone , seem to me more like the David/Heifetz del gesu . The rib height on Ole bull was from 27.5mm to 31.0 mm . The rib thickness on upper-bout was 1.4mm and 1.1-1.2 in the C-bout and the lower bout . The measurement through out the whole instrument was so inconsistent , but quite consistent to del gesu concept in general . Maybe excepting the top arching and the eccentric f hole shape. Like what's Hill said in his book " Approximately correct was in all cases sufficient unto the day ! "

[Anders Buen]

Spectrograms of the complete Sibelius excerpt on the Ole Bull (1744), the De Diable del Gesus (1735) and the Baron Knoop Strad (1715).

We see the A0 being active when the e string is played in the beginning, as well as when the g string is played later in the piece. We see the abrubt cange some 2/3rds into the piece. That first played note is the one I have shown spectra for. Maybe the note just prior to that is a good candiate for extracting the body modes?

I also enclose a spectrogram for the Stern Panette (1737) as it is such a famous instrument.

[Ken Pollard]

As advertised on some TV shows, ripped from the headlines. It seems that Stanley Potts is working on an Ole Bull model. In the October Strad issue, he writes briefly about how to carve the scroll, something to do with a bucket of whisky and masking tape, or something like that. No time to re-read it as I'm off to the store. My bucket is nearly empty. :-)

Ray, thanks for the measurements.

[Johnmasters]

Is "Ole Bull" the Norwegian equivalent of "Holy Cow" ?

At any rate, is there a place to get plans, photos etc?

[Ken Pollard]

Is "Ole Bull" the Norwegian equivalent of "Holy Cow" ?

At any rate, is there a place to get plans, photos etc?

Those of us with out The Books are looking at --

http://www.landon-violins.com/olebull/index.html

and eagerly awaiting plans, specifications, or whatever else comes up.

[DBurns]

Those of us with out The Books are looking at --

http://www.landon-violins.com/olebull/index.html

and eagerly awaiting plans, specifications, or whatever else comes up.

"Plans to be made available shortly on this page also... "

'Shortly', and 'Soon' on the internet have vastly different meanings from real life.

I.T. people have you at their whim.

[Michael K.]

Just come back from Cremona (ufff exhusted) and talked to Christoph personal at Mondomusica. I told him we are waiting for the plans. He took his phone out and have send a short message to somebody. It should come up very soon for all who have not the Biddulph Book.

[Johnmasters]

Félicie was only 14 years old when they met and they weren't married until she was 18 (1836). The second wife Sarah was 20 when married (1870). Ole Bull was born in 1810 and died in 1880.

Bruce

Dirty old man ...............

[Magnus Nedregard]

Dirty old man ...............

Hey, are you messing with our national violin-hero?

Well you might be quite right, there is much evidence that OB might not have been the most amiable man, read through the letters exchanged with his first wife, he put her through some really hard times!

Now for something much worse; I read in the Strad that Stanley Potts is having a go at the "Ole Bull" too! What if he has a secret plan of displaying it at the Menuhin competition as well? It goes without saying that he would get all the attention then! It's not fair.

[Anders Buen]

Just found a way to extract spectra and sounds from the spectrogram of the Siblius excderpt played on the Ole Bull. There is a rectangle around the section I have extracted the spectrum from. I also enclose the sound, three "transition notes" just before the low pitch part of the excerpt start.

Seems like there are some information on the body modes here. At least one see the A0 at about 290Hz (quite high pitch for an A0), possibly the CBR below 400Hz and the B1- (quite low) 420Hz or so (seems to be split) and the B1+ at 507 and 532Hz. Seems like the B1+ is split too. I do not know the significance of this. So you may take the results as being very preliminary this far.

The spectrogram is made using SpectraPlus and the spectra are from the same program. Sorry that the spectrum is not so printer friendly.

A fine test would be to do the same with the Plowden and compare to the FFT hammer spectrum of it from the Strad3D DVD/CD. [Edit] I just did, and the comparison is not very convincing. The A0 seems to be correct though. The B1- come out at lower frequency in the extract from the Siblius, while the B1+ comes out higher than the impact hammer redings from the Strad3D. Maybe the instrument could have been set up different these two times?

20_Ole_Bull_transition_note.wav

[Wm. Johnston]

A fine test would be to do the same with the Plowden and compare to the FFT hammer spectrum of it from the Strad3D DVD/CD. [Edit] I just did, and the comparison is not very convincing. The A0 seems to be correct though. The B1- come out at lower frequency in the extract from the Siblius, while the B1+ comes out higher than the impact hammer redings from the Strad3D. Maybe the instrument could have been set up different these two times?

I have tried getting similar information on the Plowden from the Glory of Cremona cd month or two ago. I compared my results to the numbers given in Curtin's article. I couldn't get the right B1's from the recording but its setup has probably changed quite a bit since that recording was made. Still the results largely made me loose interest in trying to get body mode information from the recordings. I did find a few interesting things which I will post on at some point.

[Anders Buen]

I have tried getting similar information on the Plowden from the Glory of Cremona cd month or two ago. I compared my results to the numbers given in Curtin's article. I couldn't get the right B1's from the recording but its setup has probably changed quite a bit since that recording was made. Still the results largely made me loose interest in trying to get body mode information from the recordings. I did find a few interesting things which I will post on at some point.

Yes, It's on that recording too. I also found a quite high B1+ on the Miracle makers recording. However i found a better fit with Sloans del Gesu that also has its modes noted in Curtins article. Maybe the Plowden has been set up very stiff at those earlier times?

I also wonder if use of shoulder rests may influence the resulting modes. On the pictures in the book, it does not look like Oliveira was using a shoulder rest.

The notes I extracted the data from is played quite high on the fingerboard. Maybe the position of the hands may have an influence too?

I am not quite ready to give up on this yet. Stephanek et al wrote about it in a CASJ article attributing the level of these body sounds to "rustle" in the sound of the notes they did listening tests to. It is translated from Chech language, so the word may not have the right meaning or be the right in use by english native speakers (is it?). But they concluded that too much of it was not good. And I think Strads may have a little less of it than the del Gesus on the Miracle Makers recording. We also know that Dünnwald could sort away some 2/3rds of the instruments for not being "Italian sounding" just by looking at the level of the A0 in comparison to the strongest resonance in the mid range from 650Hz to 1120Hz.

Maybe looking at a wider frequency region and looking at the max line rather than the average response may reveal the modes even better?

I think the Ole Bull response with a large distance between the B1- and the B1+ may be a result of the thick central region of the back plate of the Ole Bull. We should see something similar for the Cannon. A recorded finger snap on the G string side of the Cannon del Gesu is on my wishlist.. :-)

However, I would be interested in your results Wm.

[Michael K.]

Plans are online!

http://www.landon-violins.com/olebull/Grap...ull%20plans.pdf

[Ken_N]

Cool! I just printed them out at home. Are they from a full size book? If they are I suppose I could put the file on a disc and have it printed up full size. That would be real cool. Is that wedge shaped thing on the belly archings the width of the scroll rolled over on itself? If all the plans in the book are like that it must be nice.

Ken

[Michael_Molnar]

These are superb plans. Thank you!

Mike

[JimMurphy]

It appears The Ole Bull doesn't have a very pronounced Del Gesu "scoop".

How does its BellyArchHeight compare to The 1744 Sauret's 17.4 mm ?

Thanks,

Jim

[Addendum: After reviewing the Plans per Post #68, my question is answered.]

[Wm. Johnston]

Is that wedge shaped thing on the belly archings the width of the scroll rolled over on itself? If all the plans in the book are like that it must be nice.

Ken

If you are looking at the same thing as I am, it looks like long arch templates for the top taken on both sides of the fingerboard.

[joerobson]

These are superb plans. Thank you!

Mike

Mike,

Does this mean you are in for the event?

Joe

[Ken_N]

The Hargrave articles on del Gesu working methods he mentioned that the later instruments he made had archings more like Maggini, or Strads Milanollo. These archings look like they could be either. They are even lopsided like the Milanollo. The thicknessing is much different though, especially compared to the Strad. And even though the Maggini system is much the same, it isn't as thick.

[Ken_N]

Thanks Wm. I never would have got that. Never used a long arch before. I think I will use templates this time, then check to see how much it moves when strung up.

Ken