Now that Bruce Carlson is here.....

[David Burgess]

Now that Bruce Carlson is here, we have an improved chance to debunk some myths about violin making competitions. My prior statements on the topic were met with some skepticism, so I'll take another shot at it.

Various assertions have been made, including from some in the field, that there is a particular style, maybe "clean", which must be conformed to in order to do well in a competition.

I worked alongside Bruce in one of the Cremona Competitions. Many of the instruments entered had a similarity of style, and that style was well executed.

In awareness that some people will draw upon the competition for direction in their own making, and also with a goal of advancing instrument making (a goal of most of the competitions), one question which came up for us was something like,

"What instrument can we legitimately give an award to which might send a message about the merits of being willing to get off the beaten track, and be a little more "free-form"?"

We spent some time on this, and I think we came up something good.

I can't speak for all competitions, or all judging teams, but it's one example which might provide some counterpoint from people who were actually involved.

Back me up on this, Bruce?

Also, thanks for all the stuff you've contributed on the "Canonne".

[Bruce Carlson]

Now that Bruce Carlson is here, we have an improved chance to debunk some myths about violin making competitions. My prior statements on the topic were met with some skepticism, so I'll take another shot at it.

Various assertions have been made, including from some in the field, that there is a particular style, maybe "clean", which must be conformed to in order to do well in a competition.

I worked alongside Bruce in one of the Cremona Competitions. Many of the instruments entered had a similarity of style, and that style was well executed.

In awareness that some people will draw upon the competition for direction in their own making, and also with a goal of advancing instrument making (a goal of most of the competitions), one question which came up for us was something like,

"What instrument can we legitimately give an award to which might send a message about the merits of being willing to get off the beaten track, and be a little more "free-form"?"

We spent some time on this, and I think we came up something good.

I can't speak for all competitions, or all judging teams, but it's one example which might provide some counterpoint from people who were actually involved.

Back me up on this, Bruce?

When David and I were judging at the same competition (Triennale) in Cremona we had a long discussion about the special prize in the name of Simone Fernando Sacconi. In the end we pushed for an instrument that was not the most "perfect" instrument there but it was very attractive and spontaneously appealing. If you have ever judged in a competition and you walk past rows and rows or tables and tables full of instruments, like David and I, you might begin to ask yourself which of these instruments do I find really attractive? I mean attractive in an overall way; what is known as a gut feeling. Filling out the forms on the point system, an instrument like this might not get to the top but somehow it is an instrument that says something to you. It makes you stop in the middle of the row and it says "look at me". How else can it be described?

Of course it was well made but quickly and efficiently, it had character with a pleasing varnish colour and texture. The model was inspired by Andrea Guarneri, which was a fresh change from the more mainstream Stradivarian theme but it was also well worked and everything seemed to fit well together. Because it was the Sacconi prize we also felt that it should be an instrument that Sacconi himself would have liked. An instrument that owed something to the past history of violinmaking but with a new twist and a personal touch. Nobody would ever have said it was an exact copy.

Bruce

[Darren Molnar]

Who was the maker? any pictures?

[Melvin Goldsmith]

I think there is quite a difference between awarding points for this and that according to accumulated wisdom and going for what you just feel attracted to or instinctively like.........There is merit in both systems for sure. .................I'm pretty sure my wife wishes she had judged me on a points based system.

[David Burgess]

Darren, I think our goal here is not to promote a particular maker, but to furnish some thoughts which might be useful to other makers.

[Melvin Goldsmith]

In this month's Strad Magazine there is a pull out newsletter for Beare's. It is an advert for Beares but in it in interview form Charles Beare in interview form outlines his thoughts on where modern makers should aim at. .........It's well worth a read...Basically he says immerse yourself in Classic Old Cremona as if you lived there for at least 10 years..then take it from there....I think it is great advice.

The add features a pic of a copy of the Parke Strad by Peter Beare...it looks really nice.

[Darren Molnar]

Understood, thanks David. So for this award, was a points system used in conjunction? Was the rest of the competition judged along these lines? I like this concept, I think

[Janito]

somehow it is an instrument that says something to you. It makes you stop in the middle of the row and it says "look at me".

I had exactly this experience at last year's VSA competition (my first attendance) when I approached one of the quartets.

I was very pleased the judges concurred, and awarded it the gold medal.

[JimMurphy]

... with a goal of advancing instrument making... send a message about the merits of being willing to get off the beaten track, and be a little more "free-form"?"

Nobody would ever have said it was an exact copy.

Hey Bruce & David,

I think I understand the positive aspect of curb appeal when awarding a "special prize". Judges may give more leeway there.

In terms of advancing instrument making though, sometimes the greatest challenge is what happens after their first impression -

when competition Judges take an even closer look and they don't see the same old same old.

The benchmark Models are the centuries-old Cremonese designs. Certain benchmark features

are deep-rooted in Judges' minds.

As rhetorical examples, should Judges freakout [deduct points] when they "see":

[1] arching different from the "norm" yet producing superior tone [to their own ears] ?

[2] linings far from traditional size - and maybe not even Willow or Spruce ?

[3] a bassbar far removed from Cremona-design ?

Which competitions are looking for the best Violin, rather than the best benchmark "copy" ?

Jim

[jezzupe]

edit

[jezzupe]

4. that does not have corners

5.is not of spruce and maple

6.has 25 piece back

7.no scroll

8.but sounds very good

?

[Michael K.]

In the end we pushed for an instrument that was not the most "perfect" instrument there but it was very attractive and spontaneously appealing.

Very good! Has VSA this kind of special prizes?

[Torbjörn Zethelius]

I endorse this line of thought. One question /clarification/ though: surely the winner must have a good tone and not be judged by appearance alone?

[Bruce Carlson]

I endorse this line of thought. One question /clarification/ though: surely the winner must have a good tone and not be judged by appearance alone?

The instrument placed high enough in the points to be taken into consideration for this prize.

Bruce

[David Burgess]

As rhetorical examples, should Judges freakout [deduct points] when they "see":

[1] arching different from the "norm" yet producing superior tone [to their own ears] ?

[2] linings far from traditional size - and maybe not even Willow or Spruce ?

[3] a bassbar far removed from Cremona-design ?

Which competitions are looking for the best Violin, rather than the best benchmark "copy" ?

Jim

None of those things would bother me, except that with archings, I'd probably be looking for some kind of thematic continuity with the rest of the instrument.

I think all the major competitions are looking for the "best violins", and don't apply any favor to copies.

4. that does not have corners

5.is not of spruce and maple

6.has 25 piece back

7.no scroll

8.but sounds very good

?

I doubt whether it is possible to predict how an instrument will do from a description. Judges tend to be people with traditional backgrounds, probably because no one has yet come up with a better approach. I've really liked one or two of the radical departure instruments I've seen. Can't speak for everyone though. With any competition, one needs to look at the rules. If the rules say something like, "Winning instruments will be those which are most faithful to the golden era of Cremonese instrument making", that might not be the one for you, Bud.

The VSA issues some awards for sound alone, which will allow as high as a silver medal. To get a gold medal though, an instrument must do well in both categories.

Very good! Has VSA this kind of special prizes?

Not at the moment, but a high scoring percentage is assigned to "overall impression".

I endorse this line of thought. One question /clarification/ though: surely the winner must have a good tone and not be judged by appearance alone?

In both the VSA and Cremona Competitions, when I have been involved, the top awards were composites of both.

Edit:

At one time, the VSA awards for tone and workmanship were completely separate, and not merged.

[bean_fidhleir]

Darren, I think our goal here is not to promote a particular maker, but to furnish some thoughts which might be useful to other makers.

Excuse me for butting in, David, but aren't you talking to "other makers" here with the purpose of being useful? If they'd been able to attend the competition, wouldn't they have seen which fiddle got the Sacconi award? Or were the fiddles not ever identified by maker?

If the fiddles were identified by maker, then what useful purpose can be served by not naming the recipient here? Unless by "useful to other makers" you meant "useful to other makers attending the competition" which I find extremely hard to believe.

What am I missing?

[David Burgess]

I can see how a name and pictures would be useful. The detectives among you will probably be able to figure out who it was.

Where I was trying to keep focus was on dispelling some myths which seem to be widely held, encourage makers to try some different things, and let them know that they're not as restricted as rumor might make them think. I can understand how some of these myths may have gotten started. Looking at winning instruments, a certain style could appear to be prevalent. Understand though that judges can only choose from what is submitted. If makers don't submit instruments which get off the beaten path a bit, none can win.

If the reason they don't submit them is because they believe they can't win, you can see what a vicious circle has been created.

You've made a strong case though, and maybe the name should be mentioned. I'll go over it with Bruce. It might be a challenge to come up with pictures of that particular instrument unless the Cremona Competition has them tucked away somewhere.

[Bruce Carlson]

I can see how a name and pictures would be useful. The detectives among you will probably be able to figure out who it was.

Where I was trying to keep focus was on dispelling some myths which seem to be widely held, encourage makers to try some different things, and let them know that they're not as restricted as rumor might make them think. I can understand how some of these myths may have gotten started. Looking at winning instruments, a certain style could appear to be prevalent. Understand though that judges can only choose from what is submitted. If makers don't submit instruments which get off the beaten path a bit, none can win.

If the reason they don't submit them is because they believe they can't win, you can see what a vicious circle has been created.

You've made a strong case though, and maybe the name should be mentioned. I'll go over it with Bruce. It might be a challenge to come up with pictures of that particular instrument unless the Cremona Competition has them tucked away somewhere.

I wrote the paragraph that way on purpose as the name of the maker is

irrelevant to the concept. The intent here is not to publicize a

certain maker but to help reveal some of the thought processes and

considerations made during judging. I remember getting some pretty nasty

comments from some makers (whose names I will not reveal) over our

choices in that particular competition; including late night anonymous

phonecalls. On the other hand, it could have been a simple protest on

the part of Cremonese makers in the competition who felt that their

instruments should be favored, no matter what. The criticisms mostly may

have come from those who outdid themselves trying to make the perfect

instrument; convinced of the fact that this is what was needed to win

and the only thing needed to win. Some instruments of this

perfect type can be related to going to a concert, where afterwards you

can say, "He played every note, and in tune, but musically it was a

disaster."

Bruce

[Jeffrey Holmes]

If you have ever judged in a competition and you walk past rows and rows or tables and tables full of instruments, like David and I, you might begin to ask yourself which of these instruments do I find really attractive? I mean attractive in an overall way; what is known as a gut feeling... It makes you stop in the middle of the row and it says "look at me". How else can it be described?

Of course it was well made but quickly and efficiently, it had character with a pleasing varnish colour and texture. The model was inspired by Andrea Guarneri, which was a fresh change from the more mainstream Stradivarian theme but it was also well worked and everything seemed to fit well together. Because it was the Sacconi prize we also felt that it should be an instrument that Sacconi himself would have liked. An instrument that owed something to the past history of violinmaking but with a new twist and a personal touch. Nobody would ever have said it was an exact copy.

Hey all,

Frankly, I don't think it matters a hoot to this discussion who made the instrument in question. Bruce's description is something I can completely relate to...

One of my favorite jobs when I served on the board of the VSA was to place the instruments out on the display tables before the awards were announced. This gave me a chance to see the field of instruments without bias... and, of course, I'd "pick" those instruments I really liked the overall look of. My overall favorites were, more often than not, represented in the awards... though they might or might not be the recipients of a "gold medal". What this told me was that the judges, at least in part, were responding to the same, or similar, things abut those instruments as I was.

I think one of the more important things Bruce mentioned in his post was "An instrument that owed something to the past history of violinmaking but with a new twist and a personal touch." The instruments that "wow" me usually have this quality. Classic enough to bring you in, but different enough to really catch your attention.

If you're looking for examples, a number of very well known makers have accomplished this... I think David being one (I'm letting touchup dry on one of his 'cellos while I write this... I enjoy working on his instruments... and his work would be pretty hard to confuse with another maker ), Ravitan is another (his approach to the contemporary "patina" of his varnish... which is damn hard to duplicate when touching in, BTW), the earlier work of Sbernini boasted some very cool edgework that probably only "worked" on his instruments due to other working character details present (haven't seen one of his fiddles for a few years, so I'm not sure where he's gone with it), Jan Spidlen has produced some rather fine personalized work, etc., etc (there are a good number of others I can think of)... and there are probably (I hope) some excellent stylistic makers who's work is not so well known, yet...

The thing is, these makers all have an understanding of what a "classic violin" is... a base from which to personalize their work... so my advice to maker interested in developing a style that will catch the attention of others in the field is to try your best to gain exposure to the classic stuff before jumping off the deck.

The purpose of this thread was to present some explanation of what goes on in the judging of instruments, and to dispel some misconceptions about the rigidity, right? That doesn't mean there's not a structure. Anarchy in the judging of a competition would probably lead to more of those nasty calls Bruce was getting.

That's my 2 cents. Carry on.

[David Burgess]

What do you think Jeffrey? Should I try making an "organic" violin?

It would probably turn out with the thematic cohesion of a guy wearing a skirt and high heels.

I like it when other people can do it though.

[Jeffrey Holmes]

It would probably turn out with the thematic cohesion of a guy wearing a skirt and high heels.

I was thinking that there would have to be some sort of sheep correlation in there somewhere....

[JimMurphy]

... with archings, I'd probably be looking for some kind of thematic continuity with the rest of the instrument.

That being the case, many seem to associate the coveted Stradivari sound with a low/flat arch.

There may be misconception about how Judges mentally categorize instruments by Belly ArchHeight.

"Yeah, this instrument looks and sounds great, BUT ..."

For "classic violin" competition, how high is too high ... is it 16.5, 17, 18mm ???

Thanks,

Jim

[Mauricio]

Of course it was well made but quickly and efficiently...

Comments on speed always make me very curious. Is it possible elaborate on what leaves you with that impression? Or is it too hard to put in into words?

Thanks.

[Bruce Carlson]

Comments on speed always make me very curious. Is it possible elaborate on what leaves you with that impression? Or is it too hard to put in into words?

Thanks.

Well it has to be only an impression because I wasn't there when the instrument was made.

Perhaps a certain lack of high finish in all of the various components that make up the instrument and distributed more or less uniformly throughout. It leads me to think that the maker chose not to go further rather than their not being capable of going further and is very different than the "accentuated tool mark" strategically placed here and there and meant to give the impression of spontaneity on an otherwise cleanly finished instrument.

Not easy to put into words. Good question.

Bruce

[Melvin Goldsmith]

I think that this speed thing is about confidence of execution and is something that can be recognised but is very hard to put into words! I might be kidding myself but I think I can spot it in other crafts, arts, dancing or sports and other of lifes aciivities that I never did...I think you can recognise it too Mauricio