Jeffrey Holmes Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 Nice to see this develop... and escape the dreaded polish rag. It's a big file... so let me know if you all have difficulty opening it. For the full effect, once the file is open click a second time to zoom, if your browser allows it.
COB3 Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 I got the top third-- is it the crackle you are referring to? (cracleur, or whatever it is called? spelling doesn't look right...) Aren't there ways to achieve that deliberately? Nice-looking instrument...is it one you are restoring? What is the origin? Chet
A. C. Fairbanks Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 Nice to see this develop... and escape the dreaded polish rag. Hello Jeffrey, The belly of my 20 year old fiddle (made by David B.) has just that texture, and I find it both beautiful, and somehow fascinating. 'Reminds me of an endless maze. Can you say anything about what contributes to that characteristic developing? All the best, A.C.
stradofear Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 Are we looking at some sort of really nice 1920s German violin? Whatever it is, it's a great look.
Jeffrey Holmes Posted June 27, 2009 Author Report Posted June 27, 2009 I got the top third-- is it the crackle you are referring to? (cracleur, or whatever it is called? spelling doesn't look right...)Aren't there ways to achieve that deliberately? Nice-looking instrument...is it one you are restoring? What is the origin? Chet Yup... that's what I'm referring to. Yes there are ways to get texture deliberately, but this example is "natural". Origin: Made by one of our MN participants about 22 years ago. Here's a slightly smaller version of that file in case others are having trouble opening the big one: AC: Wish I knew for sure... I've seen some nice old Cremonese instruments with this sort of texture... and many others made later on... but it certainly doesn't seem to happen to all of them (even those by the same maker). Probably a combination of varnish make-up & application, environmental factors, and player's body chemistry.
Tim McTigue Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 Origin: Made by one of our MN participants about 22 years ago. Oooh, that IS nice! I'm hoping it's a Darnton, varnished with the oil/mastic varnish that is now indelibly associated with him, since I used that varnish on my #1...
stradofear Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 If it's 22 years old, it's not a Darnton.
Ken_N Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 I think that looks great. The Montagnana cello poster has a crackled finish, but John Dilworth describes the violin varnish as "like tightly drawn silk". Maybe this one is in between the two. It seems violin varnish needs to be soft enough to do that, instead of the deep, straight cracks you see on guitars. I've seen some pictures lately of some instruments where flames were left rippled and not smoothed up. That looks cool too. Since David B. was mentioned, I heard he did that as well, especially on the ribs. There is a lot of this we makers can do to make a violin more than just a violin.
Jeffrey Holmes Posted June 27, 2009 Author Report Posted June 27, 2009 This fiddle looks familiar. Just for sake of accuracy, 'tis a viola... circa 1987.
MANFIO Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 I'm curious about the viola model this maker uses... on the other hand you haven't posted a picture of the whole instrument, and the guy here who does not want to have photos of his instruments on the net is Maestro David Burgess.... Nice varnish indeed!!!
Andres Sender Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 That was my first thought, but I have since modified my guess.
A. C. Fairbanks Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 AC: Wish I knew for sure... I've seen some nice old Cremonese instruments with this sort of texture... and many others made later on... but it certainly doesn't seem to happen to all of them (even those by the same maker). Probably a combination of varnish make-up & application, environmental factors, and player's body chemistry. Hi again Jeffrey, The body chemistry would seem unlikely in my own experience in that I have that effect uniformly over the entire top of my fiddle. The character of the pattern seems unrelated to the areas of frequent contact. At the moment, my fiddle is in the shop to "get its tires rotated" but I should have it back mid-week. I don't have a macro lens, but I'll try to get a reasonable photo to post. All the best, A.C.
Mauricio Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 Origin: Made by one of our MN participants about 22 years ago. Those ripples don't lie hmmm...or maybe they do, maybe they do.
FiddleDoug Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 Very nice. Just hope you don't ever have to do any retouching work on it!
Janito Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 Origin: Made by one of our MN participants about 22 years ago. For a minute I thought, Franz Zinfandel Janito, but then I realised the flaw. --------------------- Fine v coarse ---------------- Much later For the record, this is a cello varnished with NRI Fulton's where I used lean over fat (don't ask why).
Doug Marples Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 I believe the standard thinking would be that this pattern of fracture in the varnish develops when the final layers are less flexible than whatever is underneath. In practical terms (at least with oil varnishes systems) I think that means more resin, relative to oil, in the final layers. Theoretically, decreasing the proportion of resin (especially harder resins) in the final applications of varnish will allow the surface of the varnish to expand and contract more resulting in less tendency to crack. I'm not making a value judgment here about whether or not the cracking is desirable. That's a matter of personal preference. I don't see how 'body chemistry' would have much of anything to do with it's occurrence, though a player with oily skin might impart more dirt into the cracks (in areas of regular contact) accenting their appearance I suppose. Doug
Magnus Nedregard Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 Nice! Thanks for posting that! It is a joy to behold! FiddleDoug, if you have to retouch something like that I think the only viable option is to try to imitate it mechanically... drawing it in with a point or a knife, or whatever you choose to match the appearance of the valleys. I've heard some people are able to "print" it on with a "copy and paste" method, but what I can't figure out is what medium they use for that, with regular retouch varnish you can't do that sort of thing.
David Burgess Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 I don't see how 'body chemistry' would have much of anything to do with it's occurrence, though a player with oily skin might impart more dirt into the cracks (in areas of regular contact) accenting their appearance I suppose.Doug Apparently, perspiration and exhalant chemistry can differ from person to person, or vary with diet. I've seen instruments which were used by a symphony player for 40 years, which looked almost new. After a few years of new ownership, the varnish changed dramatically. This can happen to the entire instrument, but it's most often seen in close proximity to the body. I've also seen instruments by the same maker, made in the same year (presumably the same varnish) but with different owners, which have aged very differently.
actonern Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 Varnishes that "gather up" like that... is that generally a result of lean over fat? E
Melvin Goldsmith Posted June 27, 2009 Report Posted June 27, 2009 Varnishes that "gather up" like that... is that generally a result of lean over fat?E ...................................... First I must say I like what I see. Not just the texture but also the ripples in the wood surface. In answer t the above question... Not always. Most often where we see it occuring it can be caused by a varnish of uniform fatness drying/curing faster on the outside over time. It could be down to the drying characteristics of the varnish or the application method. Sometimes adding driers to a varnish batch rather than adding them to a small amount of each coat can cause this effect. One thing that amazes me is the different forms that craquele takes. This case is tight and regular. Sometimes the islands can be quite largeror smaller . A Mint Fagnola I know is cracked in a predominantly horizontal theme which is very hard to imitate. I'd like to see more pics of the instrument in question and to know if the ribs and belly have the same texture.
stradofear Posted June 28, 2009 Report Posted June 28, 2009 I've read in painting books that various resins have individual characteristics of crackling. Unfortunately, I've never seen any photos differentiating the differences, though I have a few ideas from what I've seen.
MANFIO Posted June 28, 2009 Report Posted June 28, 2009 It's a pity we don't have Montagnana's craquelè varnish recipe...
Melvin Goldsmith Posted June 28, 2009 Report Posted June 28, 2009 I think you are probably right Strado...Tho I don't have a handle on this. ........The Moes & Moes ready craquelled is quite a neat one We should all be a bit wary tho of going all out to make cracking......My late departed friend the luthier Michael Heale had an un named violin back mounted in a frame in his living room. The varnish had cracked and shrunk very radically and was shedding scales of varnish on a weekly basis.....I dont think the plate in question was very old.
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