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Ida Haendel Strad problem (wolf note??) and solution in video?


Tommy
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No Selim, you are over complicating the picture.

The wolf frequency is one where the area under the bridge (usually the bass side) has an excess of movement, this excess of movement disrupts the regular motion of the string.

The string skips a stick slip cycle and the missed cycle travels to the nut or bridge causing a kind of hiccup in the sound.

Once the string has dissipated the excess energy the bow picks up the string in the usual stick slip cycle, until the whole thing repeats itself.

This is why a lighter string is less prone to wolfiness, the string stores less energy, the bow dominates more easily etc.

Oded

I am sorry If I am adding complication, it is not the intention.:)

Basically you say, body reacts to bridge, strings and then bowing is disturbed, so the wolf originates from slip in the bow eventually.

Possible, ruling out any thing in this subject may not be valid.

I rather fix it and dont spend much time on theoretical side. I believe it is originating from the body and stays there, bow-string interaction is just a trigger.

I think It is undesired energy partition to some where on the body that is definetely not needed to vibrate.

Intercepting energy flow to this spot is the final solution if know where. Adding mass(fingerboard in this case), is just intercepting the energy flow to certain area rather than a certain spot.

I may be wrong, this is violin, just a rebel right?:)

You said this in one of your posts.

Thanks, any ways.

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Why would a violin suddenly get a Wolf Note?

I'm assuming that Ida has had this violin for a number of years.

Surely it has seen high humidity before.

Slight changes in the arching may move the modes. A new bridge, new strings, a slight move of the soundpost. Equilibrium humidity changes are somewhat slow, 2 days or so to reach equilibrium, and the relative humidity may change all the time..

Well, I do not know exactly why, but give my ideas for a reason. A dry instrument should be more sensitive to wolf than a wetter one. But I do not knwo if that is a rule either.

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Why would a violin suddenly get a Wolf Note?

I'm assuming that Ida has had this violin for a number of years.

Surely it has seen high humidity before.

+++++++++++++

I would replace all strings, one at a time, and lubricate all grooves at nut and at bridge

before considering the possibilty of a wolf note which is more tricky

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What do you think yourself?

++++++++++++++

It is entirely possible that the nut is worn out due to the strings cutting at it day in day out. Unwanted vibration could

be created. From the video it sounded like the a string was hitting the fingerboard.

Putting a weight somewhere at the tailpiece would change the string tension somewhat. The string might not hit the fingerbøard

as hard. So vibration could be reduced to a degree.

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++++++++++++++

It is entirely possible that the nut is worn out due to the strings cutting at it day in day out. Unwanted vibration would

be created. From the video it sounded like the a string hitting the fingerboard.

if i understand it right it was the d´on the a string that was problematic.

nothing to do with the nut.

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Wolf notes can express themselves in a number of different ways. From a vague instability in the bowing, an inability to draw a clear true note, to a howling yodeling series of notes. There's often a kind of choking quality to them as well.

A strong bowing technique can sometimes overcome a wolf note.

Wolf notes are unstable, they come, they go, the change frequency. Often when you try to get rid of a strong wolf tone you end up with two weaker ones. It's like one of those games where you push one piece down and it pops up somewhere else.

The most reliable treatment for a wolf note is to get something else, usually in the proximity of the string, to vibrate at the same frequency as the wolf note. This resonator will absorb the excess energy to reduce the tonal effect of the wolf.

Oded

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The most reliable treatment for a wolf note is to get something else, usually in the proximity of the string, to vibrate at the same frequency as the wolf note. This resonator will absorb the excess energy to reduce the tonal effect of the wolf.

Oded

First of all why this excess energy is going where it is not supposed to go?

How this tiny mass will know to resonate at the same frequency as the wolf note? I mean How will it distinguish from the other spots resonating correctly?

In finished violin, it may be the only option, hiding a tiny mass some where in the vicinity of wolf center, but it is not the most effective way, since it is absorbing the energy not only for the wolf but for all. This simply means loss in the performance of the violin.

The most effective way is to fix it in white violin, while shaping the fundamentals.

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First of all why this excess energy is going where it is not supposed to go?

How this tiny mass will know to resonate at the same frequency as the wolf note? I mean How will it distinguish from the other spots resonating correctly?

In finished violin, it may be the only option, hiding a tiny mass some where in the vicinity of wolf center, but it is not the most effective way, since it is absorbing the energy not only for the wolf but for all. This simply means loss in the performance of the violin.

The most effective way is to fix it in white violin, while shaping the fundamentals.

The most common treatment is to attacha small weight to one of the strings behind the bridge then, by moving the weight forward and back tune it to the wolf note. You can test this for yourself just tune one of the open strings to the wolf note and you'll discover that it's gone.

There is also an after market device developed by GEWA which is a weight suspended on rubber feet which is tuned to various frequency ranges. You attach this device to the top of a cello near the bridge on the Bass side and it vibrates at the wolf note, absorbing the excess vibrations. Yes a wolf note eliminator can sometimes have an effect on the overall sound but the objective is to keep that at a minimum.

The most effective way is to fix it in white violin, while shaping the fundamentals.

That's like saying the best thing is to make your violin sound like the best Strad ;-)

Can't argue with that, but how do you do it?

Oded

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The most common treatment is to attacha small weight to one of the strings behind the bridge then, by moving the weight forward and back tune it to the wolf note. You can test this for yourself just tune one of the open strings to the wolf note and you'll discover that it's gone.

There is also an after market device developed by GEWA which is a weight suspended on rubber feet which is tuned to various frequency ranges. You attach this device to the top of a cello near the bridge on the Bass side and it vibrates at the wolf note, absorbing the excess vibrations. Yes a wolf note eliminator can sometimes have an effect on the overall sound but the objective is to keep that at a minimum.

I am aware of wolf eliminators, but did not know they can be adjusted to certain frequencies, this will help to focus on wolf, but this same frquency can be good harmonics for an other note on the fingerboard.

I did not hear or read a full satisfaction from these wolf eliminators, but usually complaints that, wolf is gone together with some other good things.

That's like saying the best thing is to make your violin sound like the best Strad ;-)

Can't argue with that, but how do you do it?

No I am not saying that. Laying down good fundamentals refers much more low level structure.

However, honestly, a sound like best Strad, is my ultimate dream, and the hope of getting a great sound, at least getting closer there ,is the only reason why I am making violin and making for myself only.I know I dream the impossible but this dream keeps me up at 2 am in the morning carving another back, top or another varnish, ground or binding etc..

Forcing the limts in the posts like this is just a a search for objective, better understanding, but not much interest so far.

Deeply appreciate your inputs and others.

...........................

Ida, first I like the name, it is a mountain by the Agean see( I hope I dont remeber wrong and not sure name refers it), It is such a beatiful mountain, and pretty close to sea, even in the August, you can see white peaks. It is mentioned in Greek mythology.

She has great hair at the age 78, and what a mental clarity, energy in vibrato, great gusto in the music she makes.

Great sense of humor too.

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I don't think the violin or even cello wolf note was such a problem in Strad's time. Without chinrests and shoulder rests or cello end spikes there was a lot more body contact with the violin and cello I believe that the chin contact on the body of a violin will reduce the tendency to wolf..... ( In fact I know this from experienece setting up violins...If the player uses a chinrest it's best to make adjustments with it installed!)......I also believe that a skilful player would have manipulated this extra body contact with the fiddle body to control sound production and wolf control. A very respected cellist I work with has no wolf eliminators on his nice Old Cremonese cello. He uses contact to the body with his legs and fingering an unbowed octave of the wolf to act like a wolf eliminator to control it.

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I don't think the violin or even cello wolf note was such a problem in Strad's time. Without chinrests and shoulder rests or cello end spikes there was a lot more body contact with the violin and cello I believe that the chin contact on the body of a violin will reduce the tendency to wolf..... ( In fact I know this from experienece setting up violins...If the player uses a chinrest it's best to make adjustments with it installed!)......I also believe that a skilful player would have manipulated this extra body contact with the fiddle body to control sound production and wolf control. A very respected cellist I work with has no wolf eliminators on his nice Old Cremonese cello. He uses contact to the body with his legs and fingering an unbowed octave of the wolf to act like a wolf eliminator to control it.

The shorter and lighter strings may also have contributed to that. Not sure how the lower pitch would have contributed. Maybe the forces entering the violin body is smaller with lower string tension, and thus the wolf notes are not so "well driven".

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