Small Violin with Big Volume

[bongeo]

My teacher says I need a 1/2 size violin. I am a very short adult with tiny hands and short arms. I am 4' 9" tall, which ought to be the right size for a 3/4, but my frame is so small that I am really struggling with my 22 inch violin. I can't keep my bow straight because my arm is completely extended instead of being bent at the elbow, which would be the correct position.

I played a 1/2 size (22 1/4") violin to try it, and it felt right for me. But the sound was completely unacceptable. I need a professional sound with big volume and a dark quality in a very small instrument, and I don't even know if it is physically possible to make a violin like this. Does anyone have any advice? If I have to commission somebody to make a violin, am I looking at $25-$30K for it? I couldn't afford that. Has anyone ever seen a 1/2 size that had a huge sound?

Thanks,

Bonnie

[Jacob]

I have made only one 1/2 size. It was based on the Cannone, and I depended heavily on advice from Michael Darnton.

In terms of volume and tone that 1/2 size could give most "average" 4/4 violins which came into my workshop a run for their money, with one proviso - the higher one went on the G-string, the clearer it became that it was a 1/2 size.

There is a recording of Maria Lott playing on Mozart's child violin (it's sort of a 1/3 size). It's hard to imagine that the violin is that small considering the tone it produces, but again, the G-string gives it away.

[COB3]

James Brown of MN ("Jim B") is in your area (Claremont), and made such an instrument for his little daughter. Why not go see him, and give that violin a try? Then if it is even close to what you are looking for, talk to him-- his prices are quite reasonable-- nothing like what you are suggesting. However, I fear that Jacob is right about the G string sound.

Chet

[Don Noon]

I played Jim Brown's 1/2 size violin last weekend, and it really does have a big sound. Again, the G-string isn't quite as bassy as a full-size, as low notes do depend on area and volume... but it's very good. The other strings are great, nothing lacking there. The body's a bit wider, and the ribs a bit taller than your average half size, so I'm sure that helps.

[FiddleDoug]

I haven't tried this on a 1/2 size violin, but here's a thought. D' Addario Zyex strings come in fractional sizes. The Zyex strings are noted for having some power and volume, and may be a good choice to try for something like this. Very reasonably priced also.

Has anyone out there tried this already?

[lvlagneto]

...Zyex strings are noted for having some power and volume.

I purchased a set, but was told later that they were for electric (?). I searched all over the packaging, and couldn't find anything to indicate this. Feedback about the sound and use would be helpful.

So the problem with going high on the G is that the sounds becomes nasal or wolfy?

[welshman]

how about looking at a good quality small viola and have that set up as a violin = it will have the bigger body, i've had request about the other direction having a small violin set up as a viola but the other direction should work as well. Perhaps the instrument could be opened and the bassbar tuned for the violin sound.

Reese

[La Folia]

Don't worry too much about having "straight" bows just for the sake of looking straight. Isaac Stern certainly didn't worry about it. See if you can find a video of him playing. Relax a little and you might be surprised.

[Michael Richwine]

As for bowing, the position in which you hold the violin has a great deal to do with how your bowing works. There's also no law that says you have to use every last inch of the bow. The left arm is a problem, though, if you are having to reach too far to play first position.

I saw a video of a woman not much bigger than you sawing the dickens out of a 16" viola. She was a little extreme, but illustrates the point. Have you tried getting a chin rest that sits right over the tailpiece? That should make bowing easier.

Regarding making a small violin with big sound, we have been making "soloist" model violas that have a wider lower bout and a shorter scale than normal. They sound like a substantially larger instrument, with very good bass and a very sweet treble. Others have made similar, successful efforts. I don't see why similar modifications couldn't be adapted to a small violin to make it sound larger.

What is your current level of play, and what do you call a professional sound? Similar to a $500,000 Italian violin? Not likely. Similar to a $20,000 modern bench made? Again not likely. Similar to a good $3,000 to $5,000 violin? Maybe, just maybe. Interesting question.

[FiddleDoug]

I purchased a set, but was told later that they were for electric (?). I searched all over the packaging, and couldn't find anything to indicate this. Feedback about the sound and use would be helpful.

So the problem with going high on the G is that the sounds becomes nasal or wolfy?

Don't know who told you that the Zyex strings are for electrics, but they obviously don't know anything about them. I know that Helicores are often used on electrics. I've had excellent results with Zyex strings on acoustic instruments, and I think that they will be my preferred strings for most set-ups. Plenty of sound, with good complexity and playability.

[Dwight J]

My teacher says I need a 1/2 size violin. I am a very short adult with tiny hands and short arms. I am 4' 9" tall, which ought to be the right size for a 3/4, but my frame is so small that I am really struggling with my 22 inch violin. I can't keep my bow straight because my arm is completely extended instead of being bent at the elbow, which would be the correct position.

I played a 1/2 size (22 1/4") violin to try it, and it felt right for me. But the sound was completely unacceptable. I need a professional sound with big volume and a dark quality in a very small instrument, and I don't even know if it is physically possible to make a violin like this. Does anyone have any advice? If I have to commission somebody to make a violin, am I looking at $25-$30K for it? I couldn't afford that. Has anyone ever seen a 1/2 size that had a huge sound?

Thanks,

Bonnie

What is your skill level?

Please don't take the question as an insult. The fact that you need a professional sound implies you are a very skilled player. However, the question of what size violin to play is usually settled before one gets to that level.

[Michael Richwine]

My teacher says I need a 1/2 size violin. I need a professional sound with big volume and a dark quality in a very small instrument, and I don't even know if it is physically possible to make a violin like this. Does anyone have any advice? If I have to commission somebody to make a violin, am I looking at $25-$30K for it? I couldn't afford that. Has anyone ever seen a 1/2 size that had a huge sound?

I spoke with my colleagues, and we think we can make an instrument to meet your requirements. We currently make a five-string violin with a 14 1/2" body. It has really excellent sound, and a very strong C string. I think we can reduce that instrument proportionally and still get balanced sound across all the strings, including the G. I'll have some sound clips of the five-string up this weekend, I hope. PM me if you have questions.

[Claudio Rampini]

Paradoxically, a small violin has not exactly a small voice volume, in my experience the small violins have the same chances of the full size violins. Usually we can see small factory made violins, the quality is very poor and they don't give the right idea on the potential of the small violins. In this video (the audio is completely wrong, sorry), you can see the young Eugene playing one of my 3/4 student violins, this means that it is not professional, just for students. Eugene had the second place in this Oistrakh competition in Moscow, not so bad.

[welshman]

The last post raises some thoughts, I have come across a few high quality small instruments, usually older German made copies, these quickly get snaped up by teachers to loan to their best young players and the instruments tend to stay within their group of students or friends, try looking for one like this, I have a good 3/4 of this type on hand now and can be had for under 1000.00.

Reese

[violinfan]

... young Eugene playing one of my 3/4 student violins ...

Bravo! Eugene is very talented. Claudio's instrument sounds great in his hands, the subpar audio track notwithstanding.

[cjstuff]

how about looking at a good quality small viola and have that set up as a violin = it will have the bigger body, i've had request about the other direction having a small violin set up as a viola but the other direction should work as well. Perhaps the instrument could be opened and the bassbar tuned for the violin sound.

Reese

I have a small viola that someone set up as a violin. I had purchased it as a student violin and was surprised when I gave it a closer inspection. The lower bouts are wider than a violin body, and the ribs have noticeably greater height than an equivalently sized violin. However, the fingerboard length is fine, and it's not much heavier than a violin.

I am certain that no one re-tuned the bass bar, but I though it sounded much better than the average student violin. I think you'd need to play with a few different string combinations to find something that responds a bit more quickly to compensate for the overall slower response of a viola body. I'm thinking Helicores, but that's only because I haven't tried the new Zyex strings.

[Guy_Gallo]

I came across an outstanding 1/2 sized violin at the shop of Christophe Landon. It was a Hornsteiner from mid-19th century. Dark and even and very full sound. Pretty remarkable. Didn't sound at all like a fractional violin.

We had it on loan for a while and then gave it back when (as someone noted above) a NYC teacher wanted a bunch of 1/2 sized violins for his students.

I don't know if it sold.

[violinfan]

Sarah Chang reportedly played a 1/4 size violin in her recital at the Royal Academy of Music when she was 10 years old. She sounded amazing. Does anyone know what that violin was?

Here is the first segment of the recital. The remark about the violin size starts at 1 min 44 sec.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-EZaWIPMCE

I wonder if she used the same violin in her "Debut" CD, recorded in 1989 when she was 9 years old.

[Michael Richwine]

I checked some of the better half size violins in the shop, and I have to agree with some of the earlier contributors. Some of them sound pretty good, considering their size. They're sweet, and fairly strong, but still a little thin in the lower registers, IMO, even the expensive ones. An OK choice if you can't find anything better.

Here's a very impromptu recording of a two-day-old five string violin, recorded last Thursday evening. The player is my fiddle teacher, and it was recorded in an art gallery after a music workshop, so there's a LOT of echo. Still, it gives an idea of what you can get out of a 14 1/2" corpus. The recording was done with a Zoom H4, about the same height as the instrument, and about six feet away. The file is raw except for a low cut filter at 62 hz to try to get rid of some of the room noise.

http://home.everestkc.net/woodwiz/lawrenceshort.wav

I'm thinking that if that were scaled down to 1/2 size with four strings, it would still carry a pretty good G string, and it's plenty sweet in the higher registers. Not professional sound perhaps, but pretty decent. It's just a shop fiddle, not bench made, so it's not terribly expensive despite the fact that it's made in USA.

This has been my pet project, btw, so suggestions and comments are welcome. My goal was to make a five-string fiddle with good sound for swing players and string teachers, as well as bluegrass, country and alternative music performers. Of necessity, it doesn't meet the same tonal criteria as a normal violin, but I'm hoping that my target market will like it.

[Doug Rice]

Nonado

It sounds great. Your teacher plays beautifully. Wish I could play like that!

I made my kids two 3/4 size violins with Englemann spruce from Simeon Chambers and they had tons of volume. (Lousy workmanship though.

Doug

[bongeo]

Many thanks to everyone who responded to my question. These answers have been very helpful. I decided to keep playing my 22 1/4" violin, which is actually a 7/8 size, because I don't think I can find something that sounds as good in a much smaller violin. If my bow isn't always straight, I don't think it matters much. I won't be teaching, so I won't be demonstrating the wrong technique to children. I find that the length of my violin comes just into the middle of my palm, which is the longest size that a child is supposed to be able to manage (the most comfortable size being the one that comes up to the wrist). So this is the biggest size I can play. My teacher graduated from Juilliard, and she has a perfect technique. She is also 5' 8" tall, as opposed to my 4' 9" size. And she has to demonstrate the right technique because she is teaching, not just performing.

I have several 3/4 violins on hand. They are all around 21" long and they are pretty comfortable to hold, but they don't sound like my 7/8. I have one very old 7/8, a German Amati copy, that has a baroque sound with excellent volume and tone quality that projects like my 7/8. There is a marked difference between the sound of this one and any of my 21" violins. So I think size probably matters most in the sound production, especially on the G string. Both of my 7/8 size violins have a very nice G, while the 3/4's have a G that is not comparable in quality. Their E's are also a little thin, by comparison.

I have Chang's early recordings. She played a 1/4 first, then a 1/2. The sound she got out of those tiny instruments was astonishing. You have to think that it is her technique that is producing the sound, and not some magical quality in the two fractional violins, although I am sure they were excellent violins. Dorothy DeLay gave Chang the 1/2 size violin to use until she outgrew it. The sound Chang gets now, on her 4/4 violin, is huge and powerful. She must find it very gratifying to make a sound like that.

I'd settle for being able to make a nice silky sound on my 7/8. I am a beginning student, but I am very fussy about the sound I produce because I am 63 years old and I have been listening to all of the great violinists for 6 decades. My father played the violin, so we heard a lot of violin recordings in my house, and I grew up with the sound of Heifetz et al ringing in my head. I had found a wonderful 4/4 Mittenwald that I fell in love with, and I was playing it for a few months while I went through the beginning technique books, but after I graduated to more complicated stuff and started on Hrimaly, I found that the violin was simply too big. My teacher was certainly right about that. It broke my heart to give up the Mittenwald. What a sound this violin has! Its projection is unbelievable. It is one of those violins that make you sound like a much better violinist than you are. And you can hear it from one end of a church to the other, clear as a bell. You can even hear it outside the church. This violin has the most penetrating sound I have ever heard, and I REALLY wanted to keep it. I still have it, but I am going to have to sell it. It is not a thing of beauty--has cosmetic repairs and the purfling is beyond dreadful on it, but the anonymous luthier who made this was gifted. I, of course, want a smaller version of this violin that sounds exactly like it. I'd also like to see world peace and an end to the Middle East conflicts. But I am going to make do with the very nice 7/8 I have that sounds like a gypsy violin. It rings all over and has a beautiful E, maybe the best E I have ever heard. It has a chimey quality that I love (I realize some violinists don't like the chimey quality). For me, at least, it is necessary to love your violin in order to spend all that time practicing. If you don't love it, why would you listen to it for 3-4 hours every day? At least I have one that I love, so for now, I am keeping it, even if my bow is sometimes crooked.

Thanks again for all of your input. I printed it all out so I have it as a reference later.

Bonnie

[C.B.Fiddler]

It is my understanding that some Guarneri DG's have lengths very similar to 7/8 sized violins, though accepted as "full sized" instruments. I wouldnt be discouraged by the dimensions of the fiddle if you like the sound and the tonal abilities - as you and others have pointed out that a beautiful sound is possible from a well-made instrument in the hands of a competent player. I did think that the over-the-tailpiece chinrest was a good suggestion for getting a little more length out of the bow.