Homemade cases?

[GlennYorkPA]

richardz - I guess all we can do is wish you well with your project and ask for regular updates. Perhaps if we are successful in organizing an international case making competition you will be willing and able to submit an entry.

Polkat - The question of how to secure the violin in the case is a huge one. When one collects old cases and old violins, one quickly realizes how difficult it can be to match a violin with a case. This is because the better cases were hand made for a particular violin and not all violins are created equal. They may seem to be of similar sizes and proportions but they are not and a few millimeters can make the difference between fitting or not.

Soooooooo, commercial casemakers resort to using squishy material that will 'give' and hold the violin relatively firmly no matter what the size - hence the discussion on foam.

It's surprising that this thread has been viewed over 3,000 times and the question of suspension hasn't come up. I think Hills were probably the first to understand that the violin needs vertical supports as well as horizontal ones so they introduced a couple of ties to hold the neck down onto a padded block.

The attached picture is of a Hill shipping case designed for shipping valuable violins to America. There is no attempt at beauty, just safety. It is made of steel lined with velvet plush and the two straps are apparent for holding the neck firm. I think the idea is to try and avoid whiplash of the neck and scroll in the event of a jolt.

Hills thought this was enough but since that time, others have come up with so-called suspension systems that use pads to bear down on the instrument from above and below to provide extra cushioning.

Glenn

[fiddlecollector]

Glenn, thats an interesting case ,how common were the steel cases,i dont think i`ve ever seen one before.

[cjstuff]

Glenn, thats an interesting case ,how common were the steel cases,i dont think i`ve ever seen one before.

I imagine that combination of more expensive source material (wood was cheaper and more generally available at that point in time) and increased weight probably reduced the market for armored cases. Some of those considerations still hold true today--those ultra-light all-styrofoam dart cases are attractive in no small part because they're inexpensive and extremely light compared to, say, my vintage Jaeger shaped case.

[GlennYorkPA]

Glenn, thats an interesting case ,how common were the steel cases,i dont think i`ve ever seen one before.

Fiddlecollector,

I don't know how common these cases were but I don't believe they are common. I saw another in the Babbitt collection in Ohio but I almost didn't believe his was a Hill because the name was on paper and very difficult to read. This one has a brass plate with the name so there can be no doubt.

I acquired this one from a violin dealer who bid on a violin at Skinners by telephone. The fiddle arrived in this case although it was not mentioned in the lot description. Obviously Skinners didn't think it worth a mention but I consider it an interesting insight into how valuable instruments were shipped in the days before FedEx.

cjstuff - Those vintage Jaeger cases were the Rolls Royces of their day. Menuhin had a Jaeger double for his violins. (I wish I knew where that case is today!~!).

Is yours leather or composition?

Glenn

[Alex_E]

Yea Glenn, I'm just sort of sitting back and watching all the ideas go by, noting what I like here and there. I rather like Captainhook's idea of the violin going into the case on an angle. Makes for a very nice size accessory section.

One thing I have not seen in 'some' of the ideas is any serious method (straps?) of holding the violin stationary. Even in many of the commercial formed cases I've seen in stores, the violin can move around quite a bit inside the case, banging the ribs or tailpin against hard areas, or allowing the weight of the instrument to rest at least partially against the bridge while being carried. Many cases out there do approach this problem, but too many don't. As much of an art piece as some cases may be, there intention is to protect the instrument, which will be first priority in whatever I decide on.

Great responses here! Far more then I expected!

Holding the instrument firmly in position was one of the priorities when I designed my aluminium cases. It doesn't show clearly in the photos but the body rests on padded rails, between padded sides (foam rubber) and when the lid is closed a further four padded points close down onto the front of the body holding the violin firmly in place no matter what position the case is in.

The cases are also designed to be placed back down, side down or bottom end down and will stand unassisted in either of those positions.

The bottom end down is the one I like best as several cases can be stored together in a small area.

The design criteria was for a case that could be rested on its bottom, side and end (for vertical storage), has a lid that when closed automatically holds all the compartment lids closed, as well as holding the instrument firmly in position, with no chance of it lolling around inside the case with the bridge and strings rubbing against the lid when being carried, that cheap cases allow.

[cjstuff]

cjstuff - Those vintage Jaeger cases were the Rolls Royces of their day. Menuhin had a Jaeger double for his violins. (I wish I knew where that case is today!~!).

Is yours leather or composition?

Glenn

Good question. My Jaeger Etui case has composition construction, and it still fits as tightly as it did when it was new. "Vintage" is a pretty slippery term these days, too--I'm going to guess that my case was made sometime in the 1970s, though I have no provenance for it since I bought it used at auction. (It's hard for me to accept that something likely made after I was born is now "vintage.) I know that it looks exactly like the Jaeger shaped case used by my second violin teacher, though I'm sure she'd had her case since the 1960s or even 1950s.

It took me a long time to find this case. I see many more Jaeger oblong cases come up for auction / resale. Any idea why? Those oblong cases are real tanks--but they also weigh as much as one!

[GlennYorkPA]

Good question. My Jaeger Etui case has composition construction, and it still fits as tightly as it did when it was new. "Vintage" is a pretty slippery term these days, too--I'm going to guess that my case was made sometime in the 1970s, though I have no provenance for it since I bought it used at auction. (It's hard for me to accept that something likely made after I was born is now "vintage.) I know that it looks exactly like the Jaeger shaped case used by my second violin teacher, though I'm sure she'd had her case since the 1960s or even 1950s.

It took me a long time to find this case. I see many more Jaeger oblong cases come up for auction / resale. Any idea why? Those oblong cases are real tanks--but they also weigh as much as one!

I wonder if it has something to do with fashion.

I prefer oblong myself even though it's a little heavier.

The shaped form screams out 'I'm carrying a violin' whereas the oblong is more anonymous.

Glenn

[GlennYorkPA]

Holding the instrument firmly in position was one of the priorities when I designed my aluminium cases. It doesn't show clearly in the photos but the body rests on padded rails, between padded sides (foam rubber) and when the lid is closed a further four padded points close down onto the front of the body holding the violin firmly in place no matter what position the case is in.

The cases are also designed to be placed back down, side down or bottom end down and will stand unassisted in either of those positions.

The bottom end down is the one I like best as several cases can be stored together in a small area.

The design criteria was for a case that could be rested on its bottom, side and end (for vertical storage), has a lid that when closed automatically holds all the compartment lids closed, as well as holding the instrument firmly in position, with no chance of it lolling around inside the case with the bridge and strings rubbing against the lid when being carried, that cheap cases allow.

Alex,

I think polkat (and most case manufacturers) should consider strongly what you are saying. In effect, you are describing the perfect suspension system whereby the violin is held away from the walls of the case no matter what the orientation. The idea is good and logical althpough Mike Gordge, ex Hill and one of the finest makers of his generation, wasn't convinced of the idea.

Accepting that the idea is good, the problem comes in finding the material for the pads with just the right properties. It's easy to suggest foam but you want it to be springy, but not too springy; firm, but not too firm and importantly, it should not compact or change its properties over years of use.

Glenn

[polkat]

Well, I certainly have been considering it as you know. You said, "It's easy to suggest foam but you want it to be springy, but not too springy; firm, but not too firm and importantly, it should not compact or change its properties over years of use."

Of those criteria, I see foam rubber as the only match. The problem with it is in the last part of that sentence. You need only to rip open an original car seat from the '60's to find hard, compacted foam rubber that has taken and holds a specific shape.

So what alternatives are there?

[Sharron]

Well, I certainly have been considering it as you know. You said, "It's easy to suggest foam but you want it to be springy, but not too springy; firm, but not too firm and importantly, it should not compact or change its properties over years of use."

Of those criteria, I see foam rubber as the only match. The problem with it is in the last part of that sentence. You need only to rip open an original car seat from the '60's to find hard, compacted foam rubber that has taken and holds a specific shape.

So what alternatives are there?

How about memory foam?

Sharron

[GlennYorkPA]

How about memory foam?

Sharron

Sharron,

I have no opinion regarding any type of foam. Do you have any experience with this material?

If I were to make a case myself I would line it with traditional materials that have been around for generations and whose properties are well established like silk velours or velvet plush.

I'd just like to mention and historical fact about French fitting of the scroll.

I have found that the decorative space left for the scroll/pegbox in these old cases is almost always too narrow for today's instruments. It seems that our pegs today stick out much more than they used to. I always had an argument with my luthier about this when he fitted new pegs for me. He reckoned there had to be 15mm between the cheek of the pegbox and the collar of the peg and I think it's too much.

Either, in the past, the pegs were fitted closer to the pegbox or the cases were custom made for old instruments where the pegs were worn in.

Glenn

[Sharron]

Sharron,

I have no opinion regarding any type of foam. Do you have any experience with this material?

If I were to make a case myself I would line it with traditional materials that have been around for generations and whose properties are well established like silk velours or velvet plush.

Glenn

I have a memory foam pillow and have memory foam topping my mattress.

Heat makes it softer and malleable but apart from that it has a soft plasticine elasticity about it and recovers it's shape repeatedly.

It is fun to *play* with in your hands.....squeezing and releasing it and watching it slowly recover it shape

I think that it would work really well as a final layer as a cushion under velvet/velours.

Most of the cases I have looked at seem very *hard* and unforgiving.

I would like to feel a layer of cushioning under the plush lined interior instead of this hardness so any knocks wouldn't jar the violin.

A friend has just parted with around £370 for a Gewa case and it looks lovely inside.......but it is still hard to the touch around where the

violin sits.

Shock absorbtion with such a hard interior?

I would have thought that dropping/knocking a case would be the most common occurrence so jarring against rigidity makes no sense to me.

Sharron

[GlennYorkPA]

I have a memory foam pillow and have memory foam topping my mattress.

Heat makes it softer and malleable but apart from that it has a soft plasticine elasticity about it and recovers it's shape repeatedly.

It is fun to *play* with in your hands.....squeezing and releasing it and watching it slowly recover it shape

I think that it would work really well as a final layer as a cushion under velvet/velours.

Most of the cases I have looked at seem very *hard* and unforgiving.

I would like to feel a layer of cushioning under the plush lined interior instead of this hardness so any knocks wouldn't jar the violin.

A friend has just parted with around £370 for a Gewa case and it looks lovely inside.......but it is still hard to the touch around where the

violin sits.

Shock absorbtion with such a hard interior?

I would have thought that dropping/knocking a case would be the most common occurrence so jarring against rigidity makes no sense to me.

Sharron

Sharron,

I think you make an excellent case for memory foam.

Speaking for myself, I travel very little with my violins. When I do, I use an inexpensive Chinese case that seems quite well padded but the violin will only be in it for an hour or two.

For the rest of its time, the violin will be safely at home and live in a case like this one.

Yes, it's lined with wood but it isn't being subjected to knocks and jolts.

I don't know how many cases I have, certainly more than 50, but few of them are suitable for traveling.

Glenn

[lvlagneto]

Creating a case that can cope with any conditions is unrealistic, as a certain amount of care will always be needed.

Any kind of thick latex foam/rubber will become firm over time. Brian Henson (son of Jim Henson) stated that the latex puppets used to make the “Dark Crystal” no longer exist, because the foam simply broke down. That was in the mid 80’s, so it only took twenty plus years for the rubber to degrade... not so good.

Lighter airier upholstery foam (as you described with car seats) becomes hard even faster, turning to matted grimy fluff.

Styrofoam seems to be the most stable solution, it holds no moisture, and is only vulnerable to extreme heat. Is modern styrofoam PH neutral too? The down side is that it isn’t soft enough, but does a violin really need to rest on a bed of fluff? If the case was perfectly contoured to an instrument, and offset a bit from the surface, then covered with velour/silk, that would be a good case I would think. China already makes a lot of these.

With organic materials, the matting process is even faster. Horse hair, or cotton batting, whatever… it doesn’t last. I think case linings are probably more like horsehair on bows. They simply need replacing now and then, and there will never be a good enough soft material.

[GlennYorkPA]

Creating a case that can cope with any conditions is unrealistic, as a certain amount of care will always be needed.

Any kind of thick latex foam/rubber will become firm over time. Brian Henson (son of Jim Henson) stated that the latex puppets used to make the “Dark Crystal” no longer exist, because the foam simply broke down. That was in the mid 80’s, so it only took twenty plus years for the rubber to degrade... not so good.

Lighter airier upholstery foam (as you described with car seats) becomes hard even faster, turning to matted grimy fluff.

Styrofoam seems to be the most stable solution, it holds no moisture, and is only vulnerable to extreme heat. Is modern styrofoam PH neutral too? The down side is that it isn’t soft enough, but does a violin really need to rest on a bed of fluff? If the case was perfectly contoured to an instrument, and offset a bit from the surface, then covered with velour/silk, that would be a good case I would think. China already makes a lot of these.

With organic materials, the matting process is even faster. Horse hair, or cotton batting, whatever… it doesn’t last. I think case linings are probably more like horsehair on bows. They simply need replacing now and then, and there will never be a good enough soft material.

I agree that a single case for all occasions is probably unrealistic but it depends on one's standards.

If we split the functions and have one case for travel and another for longer term resting, then the one that's going on the subway and the overhead locker doesn't need to be expensive. If you want one that will withstand the weight of a Mercedes, then a Musafia is the one for youbut don't expect any of these to become family heirlooms.

Incidentally, the blankets of all the old Jaeger cases I've seen seem to be filled with sandy pellets. I have often wondered if these are the remains of some plastic foam now disintegrated. Does anyone know?

Glenn

[lvlagneto]

By the way, I really like the contoured wooden case/table that you posted... really interesting.

I'm not sure what the violin blankets are filled with.

[polkat]

I should think that a closely cut styrofoam pattern covered with a nice, thick velour should be protection enough, in conjuction with some of the "hold-down" ideas I've been reading about on this thread. I haven't started building anything yet though (I'm one of those who likes to have it well planned before beginning).

Foam rubber (as in car seats) seems to harden and break down at a greater rate in dry/warm environments, but I have not seen evidence of the same in styrofoam. Has anyone?

[Sharron]

I should think that a closely cut styrofoam pattern covered with a nice, thick velour should be protection enough, in conjuction with some of the "hold-down" ideas I've been reading about on this thread. I haven't started building anything yet though (I'm one of those who likes to have it well planned before beginning).

I have a cheap violin case which seems to be styrofoam and is very light to carry, but comes with a zip (which I don't like).

The shopkeeper gave it to me (new) to go with an old fiddle I bought a few years ago. It is serviceable enough but just

feels/looks *cheap*.

I already had a case which you can run cars over which I used. Far too heavy and cumbersome as it was rectangular.

I should state that I only use a case for going into the car and into a playing environment. I do not store violins in them when

not in use. This case I sold because of the inconvenience of weight and storage under seats when I was playing. Good

protective case though.

I have from Dick a chinese cheap hardshell violin shaped case as it is light, small, convenient and cheap.

It does not have the ability to create a *wow* factor when opened and I wouldn't use it if I needed protection.

I was much more protective when I bought instruments instread of making them.

So I suppose what I am saying is that it is *horses for courses*.

It depends what you want a case to be capable of.....storage/functionality/create envy/protection of cars running over it/bumping/knocking/ease of carrying/opening in tight spaces/security (waste of time as a case is easily carried away), etc.

I have a fancy too of making a case, but too much on for now.

Sharron

[lvlagneto]

I have a cheap violin case which seems to be styrofoam and is very light to carry, but comes with a zip (which I don't like).

The shopkeeper gave it to me (new) to go with an old fiddle I bought a few years ago. It is serviceable enough but just

feels/looks *cheap*.

I agree that they look cheap. The problem is the lack of a hard exterior, which would make them appear much nicer (less like a case-shaped blob covered with cloth), but Chinese export construction is all about economy. A hard shell would be much much stronger, more resistant to crushing force, which people seem to think is a huge issue (and is one, if you're tossing your violin into the cargo compartment of a plane... which I couldn't do.)

[polkat]

Yes, then of course we are talking about a filler and cushioning for the inside of the case, not the outer shell or overall design. I feel that styrofoam and a nice thick/soft velour between the styrofoam and the violin should be just fine. There is far more then just styrofoam that makes a case look and feel cheap. As has been mentioned here before, some of the better cases used simple cardboard and felt framing, considerably cheaper (in cost) then using foams. I'm still courious about any breakdown of styrofoam, which seems to be far less likely then foam rubber. Anyone know?

[cjstuff]

Incidentally, the blankets of all the old Jaeger cases I've seen seem to be filled with sandy pellets. I have often wondered if these are the remains of some plastic foam now disintegrated. Does anyone know?

Glenn

Those sandy pellets are indeed the remains of a thin sheet of open-cell foam that was placed between the layers of 1970s and later (I don't know about the 1960s) Jaeger case blankets to give them extra loft. You'll find the same construction methods used in other case blankets as well, though maybe the Jaeger foam broke down more quickly than some others.

If you pull the stitches on a blanket, you should be able to cut some fresh foam to fit and sew it back together again (or have a tailor shop do it for you). I don't know if the Gewa Jaeger replacement blankets are an exact match for vintage Jaeger colors--they certainly won't match if there's been any fade over time.

[GlennYorkPA]

Yes, then of course we are talking about a filler and cushioning for the inside of the case, not the outer shell or overall design. I feel that styrofoam and a nice thick/soft velour between the styrofoam and the violin should be just fine. There is far more then just styrofoam that makes a case look and feel cheap. As has been mentioned here before, some of the better cases used simple cardboard and felt framing, considerably cheaper (in cost) then using foams. I'm still courious about any breakdown of styrofoam, which seems to be far less likely then foam rubber. Anyone know?

Polkat,

The green, recycling lobby HATES styrofoam because it is eternal. It will not break down under any reasonable circumstances so, to answer your question, it seems an ideal component for you to use in cases.

To me, it seems a little unforgiving. I'm sure it will dampen knocks somewhat but I'd still like to see it covered with a nice layer of plush.

Iburkard - thanks for the nice comment about the case on stand. Incidentally, the stand is integral to the case. The two do not come apart.

Sharron - Are you a violin maker? I'm glad you are considering making a case and you have summarized the challenge succintly. It isn't possible to conceive of a case that is universally acceptable so a decision needs to be made as to what is required of it.

I'm almost ashamed to say that for me, appearance comes high on the list. Well, it could be a little shabby on the outside but it needs to look like a million dollars when I open it up.

Glenn

[GlennYorkPA]

Those sandy pellets are indeed the remains of a thin sheet of open-cell foam that was placed between the layers of 1970s and later (I don't know about the 1960s) Jaeger case blankets to give them extra loft. You'll find the same construction methods used in other case blankets as well, though maybe the Jaeger foam broke down more quickly than some others.

If you pull the stitches on a blanket, you should be able to cut some fresh foam to fit and sew it back together again (or have a tailor shop do it for you). I don't know if the Gewa Jaeger replacement blankets are an exact match for vintage Jaeger colors--they certainly won't match if there's been any fade over time.

cjstuff,

Bless you! That's the answer I've been waiting to hear for a long time. It sounds as though you remember the Jaeger blankets when they were fresh; not the sad, limp things they appear as today.

I'm in two minds about restoring them in the way you suggest (although I thank you for the idea). The decomposition of the internal foam is part of the history of the product and I'd like to keep it that way.

I think it was in the 1950s, or maybe 60s, Hills did quite a bit of work on searching for synthetic alternatives to whalebone and ivory and met with interesting failures. I have some of their pegs with synthetic pips and collars which have turned a lemon yellow. I think they look unsightly and wouldn't use them but I keep them for the bit of history they tell.

Glenn

[David Tseng]

I still keep 2 Jaeger cases which I ordered from Partenkirsch shop in the early 80s. There is no foam inside the blanket. Back in those days, one could choose the color of silk fabric and cowhide grain. I sold quite a few Jaeger cases because they were reasonable priced with the exchange rate 1DM=25 cents.

[GlennYorkPA]

I still keep 2 Jaeger cases which I ordered from Partenkirsch shop in the early 80s. There is no foam inside the blanket. Back in those days, one could choose the color of silk fabric and cowhide grain. I sold quite a few Jaeger cases because they were reasonable priced with the exchange rate 1DM=25 cents.

David,

So how do you account for the grainy powder that one finds inside these blankets?

More interestingly, back in the 80s when you were buying these cases, was Georg Walther making the Jaeger AND the GEWA ranges.

What did you understand the difference to be?

Was Jaeger just considered to be more 'up market'?

Glenn