Wittner geared pegs?

[Michael_Molnar]

Great for kids' violins, and fiddlers who change pitch in mid-performance. Otherwise, they are unnecessary. Still, I like them.

[Oded Kishony]

They're nice for student cellos. Wittner has recently improved their design. They work more smoothly now. I also like them.

Oded

[mamawelder]

They're nice for student cellos. Wittner has recently improved their design. They work more smoothly now. I also like them.

Oded

I prefer Chuck's PegHeds over Wittners for a multitude of reasons.

1) Smoother tuning (haven't tried the new "smoother" Wittners)

2) finishing the end is easier

3) They feel better in the hand

4) aesthetics of the wood and shape

5) size of shaft requires less reaming

6) better, more personal customer service.

7) high quality at a fair price

[Oded Kishony]

I agree that Chuck's Pegheds are superior. Better material, better craftsmanship, super service. But I believe the Wittners are cheaper, easier to install and work quite well.

The thing to watch out for in fitting the Wittners is that you have to push the peg in hard and tight before you trim the end. A small drop of ca glue on the Wittner pegs seems to help too.

Oded

[Scottie]

Resurrecting an old thread --

I finally got around to getting the bushings in and then installing some Wittner Finetune pegs.

Quick background -- my old factory fiddle needed a peg bushing. A couple of the holes were well over 9mm. In addition it was a good opportunity to put the pegs in slightly different positions to keep strings from rubbing, and to also just plain straighten them out. They've been crooked for 100+ years!

It's not the greatest job I've ever done, but seems to be pretty solid mechanically. The new positions where I moved the pegs seems to work well, and there is no string rubbing from one peg to another.

However, I didn't get the pegs positioned perfectly within their holes, so I have to pay attention how I wind the strings when stringing so that rubbing does not occur on the non-moving part of the peg. Also, only two of the four are held in by friction alone. I had to use a minimal amount of CA for the other two.

The Finetunes do seem to have a very slight notchy feel to them, like there are very slight 'detents' if you will, but it doesn't seem to have an effect on tuning. This was an old complaint with the Finetunes at one time, so I'm thinking that they have improved over time.

String lubrication at the nut is suddenly now more important than it has ever been with this violin! One of the complaints of the Perfections (for violins and violas) is the extra weight as perceived by the player. I know the Finetunes are heavier than wooden pegs but I so far have not noticed a huge difference in that area.

As far as tuning goes -- I love 'em! This has been my main fiddle for years, and the professionally installed wooden pegs could never be turned by one hand while bowing. I would always have to get the pegs in the ballpark while holding the instrument in my lap and and then finish with the tailpiece tuners while bowing. While I liked the design of the Wittner Ultra tailpiece I was using, I am now using a nice and classic-looking wooden tailpiece alone -- NO fine tuners! I find myself unconsciously reaching back to the tailpiece when tuning!

Scott

[RonnieJ]

I find it peculiar that there's so many comments on the notchy feeling of Wittners, because in my limited experience with them, they're not nearly as notchy as Perfection Pegs. I have no experience with Pegheds so I won't comment on them, but I do have experience with the other two brands. I feel Wittner makes the superior peg, and I'll explain why.

The Wittners I'm using turn much smoother than either set of Knillings that I owned. I like not having to push in or pull out and instead just turning laterally. The 8.5:1 ratio allowed me to take the fine tuner off the E, something I couldn't do with the lumpy & bumpy turning feel of the Knillings. I still want to try Pegheds, but right now I'm very happy with the Wittners.

I had installed a set of Perfection Pegs on a cheap fiddle, partially as a means of practicing the install and also just to see what the big deal is. Bottom line is, I loved the pegs. They were far from "Perfection", but I still felt that they were light years ahead of friction pegs.

But then I ordered another set, and the install went horribly awry. After I'd reamed the G peghole to screw in the peg, I noticed that the other side of the peg was dangling in mid-air, with a roughly 1mm gap all the way around between the tip and the newly-reamed hole. I thought, "what the...?!" It would seem to me that a peg fitted in this manner would come lose over time.

I examined the other three pegs and measured them. It turns out that the collar on the one peg that I'd installed was larger than the collars on the other three pegs, yet the heads and tips were all the same size. I can't state this as a fact, but I strongly suspect that this peg I'd just installed had a viola-size collar on it, or perhaps a guitar-size? I wrote to Knilling and got no response.

I called the store who'd sold me these pegs. After some discussion, they had a tech take some measurements of the other violin set they had in stock. Turns out that one of the pegs had a smaller collar than the other three, leading me to believe that there's four of these bad pegs in total; 1 in the set I'd purchased, and the other three in the other set that this store had in stock. If my suspicions are correct (since I can't examine this other set), that means that three of those pegs could never be properly installed because of improper assembly. I took my fiddle in to have the hole rebushed, and returned the Knillings and got a refund. I'm done with Perfection Pegs.

Should this be a wholly separate thread? I don't want to sound like I'm sour because I'm not, but I'm not sure if my strange experience really warrants a thread and may just be an anomaly.

Should I have caught this error before having reamed the hole so large? Absolutely, and I will not make excuses for my carelessness. I should have actually looked at the tip side and not just the shaft side to see that things weren't going well. But on other hand, shouldn't Knilling's quality control catch flukes like this? When I buy a new car I don't expect one tire to be smaller than the other three. I take it as a given that the manufacturer wouldn't do something like that, much less allow that mistake to make it out the factory exit. I guess I'll have to get out the dial caliper and measure all geared pegs before installation from now on.

So yea, Wittners all the way.

[captainhook]

"I can't state this as a fact, but I strongly suspect that this peg I'd just installed had a viola-size collar on it, or perhaps a guitar-size?"

Perfections come in two sizes, 7.8 mm (standard) and 8.3 mm, I believe (oversize). The larger ones cost about twice as much. It appears two sets got mixed, but I would suspect the store rather than Knilling. It would be quite a coincidence that the store got two sets mixed at the factory, with the right number of each size. Yes, you should have noticed that the reamer was going a lot deeper on that peg than the others, unless it happened to be the first one installed. I've installed a lot of Perfections and recall only one rough turning peg (under string tension), and that one smoothed out after a little use.

That said, I have a set of Wittners that I haven't installed (too many choices) that do look pretty nice.

[RonnieJ]

"I can't state this as a fact, but I strongly suspect that this peg I'd just installed had a viola-size collar on it, or perhaps a guitar-size?"

Perfections come in two sizes, 7.8 mm (standard) and 8.3 mm, I believe (oversize). The larger ones cost about twice as much. It appears two sets got mixed, but I would suspect the store rather than Knilling. It would be quite a coincidence that the store got two sets mixed at the factory, with the right number of each size. Yes, you should have noticed that the reamer was going a lot deeper on that peg than the others, unless it happened to be the first one installed. I've installed a lot of Perfections and recall only one rough turning peg (under string tension), and that one smoothed out after a little use.

That said, I have a set of Wittners that I haven't installed (too many choices) that do look pretty nice.

But one peg had a larger collar (yes, the first one I installed) yet had the same size tip as the other three pegs which all happened to fit properly. That lone peg didn't have a 30:1 taper anymore. How could the store be held accountable for that, unless they disassembled some pegs, mixed up some parts then reassembled?

*Edit* Then again, they did have rosewood heads. I don't know if the store took it upon themselves to modify the pegs or if Knilling made them like that but either way, some pegs weren't assembled (or reassembled?) properly and therefore unusable.

Edited June 1, 2012 by RonnieJ

[Salve Håkedal]

...

The thing to watch out for in fitting the Wittners is that you have to push the peg in hard and tight before you trim the end. A small drop of ca glue on the Wittner pegs seems to help too.

Oded

In only one case I've had to glue a Wittner peg. I did not fit that one tightly enough.

Using cyanoacrylate glue may be a good choice, but I'd like to mention plain old hide glue as an alternative:

I know that hide glue probably don't stick to the plastic (and the metal on the head end). But it still works well by swelling the wood. And when it is dried, the wood is hardened in that swelled state, holding those small ridges on the peg shaft tightly.

[UG Fiddlesmith]

I have been installing Perfection Pegs for several years and mostly with good success. I check out each set when it arrives to make sure I get two lefts, and two rights. I check the sizes and make sure they are all the same and I check to see if they turn smoothly. Then I install them. Mostly I can fit a set quicker than ebony and have little trouble. A few have returned with a frozen peg which I have to virtually destroy to get back out but have successfully gotten a new peg to work.

What really works good is when an old instrument comes in with large holes which would require bushing I can often go in with a set of 9mm pegs and eliminate the need for bushings and really save the customer some money and give them a good running pegbox. There are still cases where I have to bush. Also, I bush pegboxes with cracks and then proceed with Perfection Pegs.

I have put in a couple of sets of Wittners but also feel they are clunky and I can't get the tone as close as I want it to be. I also feel that the little grooves in the shaft intended to provide adequate friction may be inadequate and have used glue. I have had no returns on these pegs but both customers wanted fine tuners left on. The fine tuners make it difficult to get adequate back length between bridge and tailpiece and I often have to make tailpiece changes to get the setup like I want it.

Finally, I wouldn't put these plastic wonders on a real nice old violin for aesthetic reasons but then again, I do what my customers request.

[Scottie]

I probably should not have used the word notchy, as it's a word I've heard others use when talking about Wittner Finetunes 3+ years ago. In mine I do notice a *very* slight 'detent' when tuning, as if the peg is pushing you to a particular discrete position. Kind of like the balance knob on some audio equipment that lets you know where the center of travel is, but much more subtle than that. I have noticed, though, that the detent feel is NOT pushing you anywhere. Turn the knob to where it is in tune, stop turning, and it seems to stay there. I never tried these right when they came out, but according to what I heard, I have to believe that they have improved over time.

None of the few players and repairmen I know seem to be interested in mechanicals of any kind, so I've never had a chance to try Perfections.

I screwed up a bit on one of the tapered holes in that as I was gently turning the reamer, it was as if I hit a soft spot. The hole was instantly too big. I may have been reaming through my bushing glue. Several choice words were uttered. Actually I didn't consciously choose them, they just came to me, like doing a solo...

So, CA to the rescue (this is my fiddle, remember, not someone elses!). To fix this problem, I'd have to order a set of the larger Finetunes, 8.6mm, I believe.

So, they're not installed perfectly, and that bugs me a little. But as a player, I'm really liking them. I still can't seem to keep myself from reaching first for the tailpiece when touching up my tuning! Old habits, right?

Scottie

[lyndon]

why do they call them perfection pegs if the need oversize holes and super glue to fit right???

[Ken Pollard]

why do they call them perfection pegs if the need oversize holes and super glue to fit right???

I haven't needed oversize holes or super-glue for these pegs, but agree that "Perfection" is a bit of a boast. Perhaps they should market them as "Pretty Good" pegs. Or, maybe to take the humble route, "Adequate" pegs. I'm sure that would be fine for most players. Makes you wonder what the marketing folk are up to.

[captainhook]

Maybe not perfect, but I have never met or heard of anybody who wanted to go back to wooden pegs, and I have installed multiple sets for several people. Many of those replaced well-fitted pegs.

[David Burgess]

"PegHeds" are good enough that I wouldn't advise a customer against them, even on an antique and very expensive violin.

I don't normally use them because of familiarly challenges. Most people I deal with know how to use conventional pegs.

[Adam Edwards]

"PegHeds" are good enough that I wouldn't advise a customer against them, even on an antique and very expensive violin.

I don't normally use them because of familiarly challenges. Most people I deal with know how to use conventional pegs.

Thats why they are good for us guys a little further down the ladder who are mostly targeting advanced students , sometimes who still struggle with dealing with a conventional peg , most I come across go straight to tailpiece tuners to adjust ,

Salve good thought on hide glue , I'll give it a go

[Don Noon]

Most people I deal with know how to use conventional pegs.

I dredge up this thread because I've just started trying out some Perfection and Pegheds, and wonder if it's a bad idea to put them on a new instrument. Will some potential buyers absolutely refuse to consider an instrument with these non-traditional gizmos? I suppose it depends on the class of clientelle one is targeting, but is there a general statement that can be made about geared pegs being a positive or negative selling point on a new build? Go with wood first, and offer to install the geared ones later?

[Ben Hebbert]

Interesting thread, thanks.

We have a large Educational department selling violins at school-level, so in theory the target market for these fine-tuners. However, as far as we are concerned the teachers drive the market, and we find that there has been no interest in these whatsoever. When teachers start demanding these for their pupils, we'll change our point of view... but they would prefer that their pupils get used to tuning 'properly' and aren't handicapped by gizmos that act as a substitute for skill and handicap them in the long run. We're not going to interfere with that. Secondly if Wittner suggest a $175 price for supplying and fitting the pegs, that's a heavy premium to add to an entry level instrument (more than half its price again). Its a kind of heart-ache, because they are lovely bits of kit in their own right.

Paradoxically, I was interested to hear Oded saying that he had fitted them to a couple of gambas. They do seem a really wonderful idea for gut strings. Back in the seventeenth-century it was said that lute players spent more time tuning than playing, so perhaps their salvation has come, 400 years too late!

[martin swan]

I slightly favour the latter approach for violins (fit standard and offer an upgrade)... in some peoples' eyes planetary pegs are a sign of weakness ....! And it's much easier to go from conventional pegs to geared pegs than the other way round.

But for new cellos we are starting to fit PegHeds as standard.

[Ben Hebbert]

Its an interesting question of evolution - Darwin would be proud!

Should the violin shops or the players influence the acceptance of a new technology? I'm observing with huge interest.

[martin swan]

Sorry Ben, missed your post.

It has to be said that planetary pegs have been around for a while - all the EH Roth 1700 models I've come across from the 50s and 60s had planetary pegs.These were bulky rosewood affairs with a brass screw at the cap. These were pretty wide diameter, and I always fear for the peg-boxes. They didn't meet with general approval although they work beautifully and were quite pretty.

Reaming out a Strad peg-box to fit them would involve removing about £5000 worth of wood if you sell them by the gram .... I understand the diameter of the Perfections is about the same.

Wittners ........ hm. The trade price is very low and the reaming out and (if necessary) spot-gluing takes a few minutes. I don't think the quality of the fitting justifies a total bill of $175. We thought they would be an absolute godsend for Hardangers - as with Gambas, Hardanger players generally spend more time tuning the sympathetics than actually playing. But the collar on the Wittners is too wide and the narrow sympathetics just slide into it and get irretrievably stuck. Nightmare.

[Ben Hebbert]

Martin,

I saw an early something like that years ago, which had compressed the sides of the pegbox so that they had literally folded in on themselves. I wish I had a picture, the pegbox had reduced to about 6mm width at the narrowest point, presumably as a combination of the pegs humidity and ???green wood???

I'm as uncomfortable as you about putting them on an old instrument. It doesn't just mean taking away original wood, but if at a later stage you are looking to retrofit standard pegs, presumably you'll have to enlarge the holes a little further to fit bushings to reduce the holes back down to size, so whilst the initial operation may seem to be harmless, in the long term its harder on the instrument. I suppose if a pegbox was already bushed it wouldn't make much difference. By luck or by fortune the Red Mendelssohn, which is the Strad with Wittners on already has bushings on all the pegholes, so that £5,000 worth of wood was swept off the workshop floor decades ago!

Sounds like an argument to redesign the Hardanger around the Wittner - rather you than me

Best regards

Ben

[Salve Håkedal]

I dredge up this thread because I've just started trying out some Perfection and Pegheds, and wonder if it's a bad idea to put them on a new instrument. Will some potential buyers absolutely refuse to consider an instrument with these non-traditional gizmos? I suppose it depends on the class of clientelle one is targeting, but is there a general statement that can be made about geared pegs being a positive or negative selling point on a new build? Go with wood first, and offer to install the geared ones later?

I've used Wittner pegs for 2 years on around 10 hardanger fiddle related instruments (after trying Perfection pegs). It's to early to make a final conclution, but I have not had any complaints yet. On hardangers it's such a huge benefit; I think the player can live with some difficulties.

To inform the customers about the disadvantages, I wrote a little sheet that I give them along with the fiddle. I finally made an english translation that I attach here. (Any suggestions for improving my english are welcome!)

finetune-pegs.pdf

[martin swan]

I agree that some kind of fine-tuning system for sympathetics is a huge blessing. However, the combination of not being able to move the peg hole laterally when fitting and the nasty collar that the string can sink into (particularly if using thinner wire) got the better of me, since it meant that the sympathetics always needed to be precisely in place before fitting the prinicpal strings.

So I've been working on tailpieces. My current solution is stupidly simple.

This is just a rough prototype, next one will look better!

[Salve Håkedal]

Cool, Martin!

I used this one on Viola d'amores. Romantic, isn't it?